The 1998 Scott/Schwarzenegger version stalled over budget and recent commercial setbacks; the ability of Schwarzenegger to sustain the solo role is debated. — Bill Simmons
Harrison Ford and Mel Gibson are recalled as rumored alternatives for Miller; Gibson’s Australian identity makes him harder to picture.
Ford is considered plausible and naturally suited to Miller’s guarded command style, but likely to give a grouchier performance. — Sean Fennessey
Ford is doubted as an equivalent for Hanks in the teacher speech because Hanks supplies unusual empathy and handles extended speeches naturally. — Bill Simmons
Michael Bay is said to have declined an approach to direct; Pearl Harbor is used to imagine the likely result. — Bill Simmons
Ford and Gibson are repeated as Miller alternatives; another proposed actor’s name is unclear in the transcript and the claim is explicitly doubted. — Bill Simmons
Norton is said to have declined Private Ryan because of American History X. — Bill Simmons
Garth Brooks is said to have briefly been considered for the sniper. — Bill Simmons
Thornton is discussed as a possible Horvath who did not want to film the water scenes; the claim is treated as plausible rather than established.
Madsen is said to have been offered Horvath and recommended Sizemore, but the account is explicitly doubted. — Bill Simmons
Schweiger is said to have declined the prisoner role to avoid typecasting; his inability to seem goofy is discussed.
Nerve gas rockets, not nuclear, mark the peak moment for nerve gas; the film is said to have been a source of misinformation for British intelligence ahead of the Iraq invasion, and fear of nerve gas persists. — Mina Kimes
Alcatraz movies: The Rock is judged better than the slow Escape from Alcatraz, which was filmed during tours and was being shot during a 1980 family visit. — Bill Simmons
Naked guitar playing is absolutely Apex Mountain. — Bill Simmons
Movie mutinies go to Crimson Tide, with this and Mutiny on the Bounty possibly a Mount Rushmore. — Bill Simmons
Vanessa Marseille, after 90210 and dating Brian Austin Green, peaks as the lead female in an action movie; she gets it. — Bill Simmons
Christ poses go to The Last Temptation of Christ, then Platoon; needles in the heart stay with Pulp Fiction.
It is called the best action movie of 1996, better than Independence Day, Twister, Mission Impossible and Eraser, which all made more money; agreement follows. — Mina Kimes
With Armageddon raised as Bay's earnings peak, asked whether creatively this was the apex, the answer is "a hundred percent": the only Bay movie that rises to excellent, with Bad Boys 2 and the original Transformers merely okay. — Mina Kimes
Another view likes many Bay movies, even recent ones, but calls the Transformers films an anvil on his career. — Chris Ryan
The last guy standing at the end with the pronounced chin, "Gregory, spoiler," whose name the speaker does not know, could sweep the That Guy, Dionne Waiters and Vincent Hanna awards; "I think he wins." — Bill Simmons
Also mentioned: the nanny from Jerry McGuire, the campus rapist from 90210, and Costner's brother in American Flyers. — Chris Ryan
Will Smith: he needed politics to get into the movie and took second billing to Martin, then went from the safe, non-cursing guy to Independence Day and Men in Black. — Logan Murdock
Martin won the battle, Will won the war: Independence Day was Will's Thriller, and he became the biggest movie star of his generation, though Martin had big films right after. — Van Lathan
Martin Lawrence is debated: one view says yes because of Martin and this hit, while others argue a second life with Life as a possible Apex, before conceding he never had as much juice as coming out of this film.
This was Club Hell's Apex Mountain; it never got better, and it sounds like a club Stefan would make up on SNL. — Bill Simmons
Is it the Apex for Miami movies? Miami is like Gene Hackman, always perfect, so the case is no. — Bill Simmons
A follow-up asks whether mid-90s Porsches are the Apex and answers not the Apex Mountain, then asks whether another hit buddy-cop movie came after; Rush Hour counts. — Bill Simmons
The opening scene was not in the script: it was added late because Bay wanted more Smith-Lawrence scenes, was basically ad-libbed, and uses a cool yellow coloring for Miami. — Bill Simmons
Highlights include the carjacker's 'I'm a stand-up comedian and I suck' line and the Porsche argument ending in 'a shiny dick with two chairs in it' over the missing cup holder; it is one of the better four-minute openings for an action movie.
The partners staging an argument as a diversion before overpowering someone starts here, feels ad-libbed, and borrows an old Eddie trick from Beverly Hills Cop. — Logan Murdock
The opening is argued to be the best scene: it sets the push-pull brotherly relationship and answers whether audiences would buy Will as an action star. — Van Lathan
The woman used as the decoy in the opening is identified as former Playboy playmate Lisa Boyle. — Van Lathan
The first four minutes establish a Running Scared-style dynamic where the partners love each other but bust each other's balls; Running Scared is called the great lost buddy-cop movie. — Van Lathan
Other favorites: finding the dead guy while Martin tries not to throw up, Julie's apartment chase by two inept men, the office 'zoo' argument, and Marcus's phone call with his wife.
The masseuse and dog-on-the-furniture stretch and the short liquor-store robbery with its tropical fruit Bubblicious and 'some Skittles' punchline are praised; the fake argument returns there.
The hotel lobby shootout with Smith running in slow motion, shirt open, and the low camera looking up after the getaway is peak Michael Bay establishing his style. — Logan Murdock
The ending drive is basically a Porsche advertisement, with the role reversal of Martin doing it. — Logan Murdock
Pick: the final gunfight before the car chase, where everything comes to a head after the dirty cop is revealed, with Martin's 'you forgot your boarding pass' shot; the studio should have given Bay the extra money for it. — Logan Murdock
Favorite scenes are the comedic ones; the pick is the baloney scene, where Julie describes how bologna is made until Marcus is disgusted, and the film is really a comedy-action more than an action comedy. — Van Lathan
Julie's sexual tension is with Mike Lowry as an idea, even after her best friend is killed. — Logan Murdock
A final most-rewatchable pick is the first scene, exciting to catch when flipping channels.
Two voters choose Thornton because his magnetic competence and gravity keep the fourth-billed NASA role—and the movie—credible.
One voter chooses Will Patton in an openly personal selection that the others call a homer pick.
Bay owns the film stylistically but is denied the win for disowning it after criticism and for later excess; the hosts urge him to claim the masterpiece.
Willis has a second-summit case because he converts extraordinary leverage into this film, The Sixth Sense, and Unbreakable, though Die Hard remains his stricter apex. — Bill Simmons
Bay uses Armageddon’s success to obtain total freedom and Pearl Harbor-scale resources; all agree this accumulation of power is the Baypex.
The Dr. Dre needle drop and the film's L.A. feel; the two lead performances; the anti-hero crime storytelling that anticipated The Shield; Fuqua's modern, propulsive direction; Ethan Hawke's career moment
Hearing the Dr. Dre song takes one host straight back to 2001, the second decade of hip hop, with Dre then turning up in the movie later; the music and the legitimately L.A. feel are that host's pick.
The two performances discussed for thirty minutes still work perfectly; the film sits close to where TV was heading, the anti-hero era of The Shield that became consistent in cop and drug-dealer stories, and the Denzel performance splits the difference between that and the Sidney Lumet and French Connection documentary grit of the 70s, in a period with fewer crime movies than anyone in the room would like.
The direction is totally modern with nothing dated, like Fight Club; Fuqua is slick and bright, Hollywood dirty, with great pace and propulsive movies even when they are not good, a cross between Michael Bay and William Friedkin, and the locations are authentic even though parts of this movie do not hang together.
Ethan Hawke has aged nicely, this being the next step after Reality Bites, Before Sunrise and Gattaca; they will give him an Oscar at 70 for a grand old man performance even though he deserved one for six or seven movies, like a player who never won the MVP but could have.
