The opening sequence of Rosie Perez dancing to Public Enemy is the first scene on the list.
Perez was choreographing the Fly Girls at the time, and five years of dance are visible in the sequence.
Lee reportedly met Perez in a Brooklyn club and told her she was in his movie even though she said she was not an actress; the film is described as full of accidents like this.
Jennifer Lopez was one of the Fly Girls Perez worked with and was not yet famous.
Buggin' Out's Wall of Fame argument with Sal is a complicated scene; Lee has said both sides have good points: it is Sal's shop, but only black people eat there.
The Wall of Fame argument is called a proto-internet conversation with no subtlety or compromise about how many and which black figures go up.
Buggin' Out represents an emotional, ahistorical form of activism whose confrontation can only make Sal feel aggrieved.
Frank Vincent driving through the open fire hydrant is one of the funniest parts of the movie and recognizable to anyone who played in hydrants as a city kid.
A childhood memory: opening the corner hydrant and using a can with no top or bottom to spray passing cars, because there was no pool to go to.
Pino and Sal's debate about selling the pizzeria plays in one long shot interrupted by Smiley.
That conversation is necessary but not essential and creates a false sense of trust in Sal, coming right after his moment with Jade, as he says he is proud to have fed the neighborhood.
Sal also hates rap and being confronted and smashes the boombox; like the Martin and Malcolm pairing, Sal and everyone in the film carry both love and hate, with Jade possibly the only purely good character.
The final extended sequence is the last pick, painful and hard to watch rather than comforting, with the camera tumbling in and out of the pizzeria and the trash-can jump cut repeated three times.
That final sequence is thought possibly to be the only one Lee ever storyboarded, with Ernest Dickerson, from the moment Smiley, Buggin' Out and Radio Raheem enter the pizzeria.
The racial slur montage is added to the list; later Lee versions such as the 25th Hour mirror speech have made the device less effective, but here it establishes the factions.
A Turturro story: after watching dailies of his rant he asked Lee to get on the cover of Ebony with his arm around him so he would be safe on the subway; his rant is called the best of the sequence and extremely rewatchable.
After the list is recapped, one participant goes with Rosie Perez; the ending is chosen by a participant who calls Rosie a close second.

What’s Aged the Best?

The film's timelessness; Fight the Power

In the discussion (9)

Approx. transcript time · 00:48:05Read transcript

Fight the Power appears in the film over 20 times and was written for it after Lee asked Chuck D for an anthem.
Other rundown items: the clash between generations and races, Ossie Davis and Ruby Dee as the mayor and Mother Sister, and Spike Lee as a movie star.
Lee is not a good actor here but does not need to be; he gives a charismatic center, is not dead on screen, and this was essentially the last time he put himself at the center of one of his films.
Also listed: Danny Aiello's nominated powerhouse performance, Robin Harris as Sweet Dick Willie, Dickerson's color in the red wall and the rooms, Mr. Softee, and direct address to camera later borrowed by Wes Anderson.
Two things one host believes Tarantino took from the film: the 'shoot me in a dream' line that reappears in Reservoir Dogs, and the Sicilians-and-Moors idea from True Romance echoing Mookie and Pino's talk; Lee has never said this.
Asked what has aged best, the answer is the film's timelessness, perhaps the movie itself.
Ossie Davis and Ruby Dee, who per one host never got fuller film careers for racism-related reasons, get a salty love letter here; asked whether they are the vote, the answer is the film instead.
Public Enemy is the other pick: the song never gets tiring, has perfect samples, and Chuck D's muscular, off-kilter voice cannot be mimicked, according to a participant who wrote rap criticism for almost 10 years.
The harmony with Flavor Flav is praised, while noting the history his image invokes and that he later complicated it as a reality star; the result is called 'your winner. Fight the Power.'

What’s Aged the Worst?

What Rosie Perez's character is made to do; her nude scene

In the discussion (5)

Approx. transcript time · 00:55:44Read transcript

There is not a lot here; one hedged answer is that Perez's first-movie inexperience shows.
What she is made to do has aged worst: browbeat Mookie as a bad father, morally in the right but made unpleasant, though she still has two dimensions.
The nude scene has not aged well; a Perez interview is read on air saying she had a big problem with it, felt the atmosphere was not correct, and did not want to do the ice-cube shot.
The hosts note Perez and Lee remain in communication, that she is honestly reflecting on a bad experience, and that the film launched her career.
Her run through White Men Can't Jump, Fearless and Untamed Heart is praised; she became a character actress without her Latina identity being a talking point.

Casting What-Ifs

Robert De Niro as Sal

In the discussion (4)

Approx. transcript time · 00:59:29Read transcript

The only casting what-if found: Lee campaigned for Robert De Niro to play the pizzeria owner, but De Niro declined due to prior commitments.
With De Niro it becomes a different movie about De Niro; it might make more money or get closer to Best Picture, though Aiello's nomination suggests not.
De Niro would tip the ensemble's equal balance and bring baggage, so his smashing Radio Raheem's radio might be cheered; it is a morally different movie.
Danny Aiello was a 'that guy' at the time, known from Moonstruck with a very small Godfather role and other small parts.

The Dion Waiters Award for Best Heat Check Performance

John Savage

In the discussion (5)

Approx. transcript time · 01:02:38Read transcript

Listed nominees: Bill Nunn as Radio Raheem, Robin Harris as Sweet Dick Willie, and Rosie Perez; Sam Jackson, Martin Lawrence and Roger Guenveur Smith are also raised.
Heat check is tricky because nearly every character gets about a scene and a half; Robin Harris is a 'bay leaf' outside the plot, always with Frankie Faison and Paul Benjamin.
John Savage's scene in a Larry Bird jersey, stepping on Buggin' Out's new Jordans, is offered as the pick and as a potential rewatchable scene.
Savage's story that Larry Bird gave him the jersey through his sister is called apocryphal: per the hosts, Lee debunked it to Savage's face, saying he bought the shirt and gave it to costume designer Ruth Carter.
Challenged on picking a white guy, the picker is not scared: Savage's one memorable scene is a heat check moment.

Half-Assed Internet Research

Hitchcock-episode origin; revised ending; Stuyvesant Avenue location; security during filming; Lee on critics and Mookie; later references

In the discussion (8)

Approx. transcript time · 01:06:00Read transcript

As read on air, the idea came from the Alfred Hitchcock Presents episode 'Shopping for Death', about hot weather increasing violence; it was also inspired by Howard Beach and Eleanor Bumpurs, and the screenplay was written in two weeks.
As read on air, the original script ended with a stronger reconciliation between Mookie and Sal and it is unclear why Lee changed it; the hosts answer that it is better this way and the original would have been more Hollywood.
One host argues the film was a Rorschach test: white people (and not only white people) had been conditioned to expect race movies on their terms with reconciliation, and blamed Lee for not solving the problem; the film cuts the bow like a play.
As read on air, the film was shot entirely on Stuyvesant Avenue between Quincy Street and Lexington Avenue, and the production designer painted the street red and orange to convey a heat wave.
As read on air, local crack dealers threatened the crew, so Lee hired Fruit of Islam members for security, and Samuel L. Jackson spent most of his time on set sleeping.
As read on air, in a 2014 interview the director called the critical fears outrageous, egregious and 'I think racist', saying they still bug him and that no one said that about Schwarzenegger films.
As read on air, only white viewers have ever asked Lee whether Mookie did the right thing; Lee believes those questioning the riot fail to see the difference between property and the life of a black man.
Later references read on air: police bring Sal's pizza to hostages in Inside Man, a 2016 Radio Raheem Air Jordan, and the Obamas praising the film in 2014 and saying they saw it on their first date.

Apex Mountain

Spike Lee as a fiction filmmaker; Danny Aiello

In the discussion (7)

Approx. transcript time · 01:16:24Read transcript

This is Lee at the peak of his filmmaking powers, a firm yes, rather than Malcolm X, 25th Hour or Mo' Better Blues.
4 Little Girls is raised; Lee is one of the best nonfiction filmmakers, so the apex claim is limited to his fiction filmmaking.
Some of his films, even good ones like BlacKkKlansman, have screenwriting problems; Inside Man is perfection; here the screenplay is perfect.
Losing Original Screenplay to Tom Schulman is called the real travesty; the missing Best Picture nomination is not, since it would never have won even in 2019.
Danny Aiello: yes, the best performance he ever gave in a movie.
John Turturro: no; Jungle Fever, Barton Fink, his self-directed films, Transformers, Gloria Bell and Miller's Crossing are cited, with a joke that he gets sexier as he ages.
No one else in the cast is at the peak of their powers; it is Lee's apex.

The Joey Pants “That Guy” Award

Frank Vincent

In the discussion (4)

Approx. transcript time · 01:20:20Read transcript

Frank Vincent is one of the all-time that guys, and it could always be him.
Other candidates: Frankie Faison, known from The Wire, Roger Guenveur Smith and Miguel Sandoval as a cop.
Giancarlo Esposito used to win this category until Breaking Bad.
Faison is suggested, then Frank Vincent 'because it's always Frank Vincent', met with agreement; he has not moved beyond that-guy status.

The Ruffalo / Hanna / Rubinek / Partridge Overacting Award

Ruby Dee

In the discussion (3)

Approx. transcript time · 01:21:08Read transcript

Giancarlo Esposito was written down, but the other participant would not pick him because Buggin' Out is meant to be bugging out, though sometimes he could chill.
Ruby Dee is named instead, not for a bad performance but for Mother Sister's burn-it-down moment, which is still shocking.
The Esposito picker is surprised and accepts the Ruby Dee choice.

Picking Nits

No affirmative selection

In the discussion (2)

Approx. transcript time · 01:22:05Read transcript

There is not a single nit to pick in a movie called perfect several times; Tina and Rosie Perez were discussed, but that is not a storytelling problem.
The key nit many people raise is why Mookie did it, but the hosts decline to have that conversation.

The Neil McCauley “A Book about Metals” Award for Best Line from the Movie

Senor Love Daddy's roll call; Pino and Mookie's favorite-stars exchange

In the discussion (11)

Approx. transcript time · 01:22:36Read transcript

A detail noticed only on a recent rewatch: the Black Panther comic book and the 'we eat pizza' moment, called Lee ahead of the curve.
Lee is credited with helping invent sneakerhead culture and the rock-star NBA image, not just Nike.
Radio Raheem's love and hate speech is played.
Sweet Dick Willie telling people to boycott the barber who messed up their head might be the funniest line in the movie.
The mayor telling Mookie 'always do the right thing' and Mookie's 'That's it? I got it. I'm gone.' came to mind when Lee won an Oscar; 'Stay black' is also cited.
Senor Love Daddy's roll call is called the best: a diverse mini history of black music from Branford Marsalis to Bessie Smith, which later rap acts copied.
We Love Radio never reaches the street; Love Daddy stays behind the glass.
Sal's 'I built this place with my bare hands' speech shows the film still working through his feelings; Lee did not have to let Sal speak, and the final conversation is balanced between antagonism and a moment of their old relationship.
'Why don't you go back to Massachusetts? I was born in Brooklyn' is cited.
The Pino and Mookie exchange about Magic Johnson, Eddie Murphy and Prince is called the best conversation in the movie because it is a real conversation black people have with non-black people who say 'you're different'.
Senor Love Daddy's 'y'all take a chill... that's the double truth, Ruth', which opened the podcast, is also cited.

Sequel, Prequel, Limited Series, or All-Black Remake

Could work as a different Netflix series

In the discussion (2)

Approx. transcript time · 01:30:10Read transcript

The first answer is no, but on reflection it could work, just not as the perfect math problem the movie is.
Lee already made She's Gotta Have It into a TV show, which one participant would not watch.

Probably Unanswerable Questions

Mookie's trash can was both rescue and rage; Pino is mad because a black girl rejected him; Mookie and Sal never patched it up; Mother Sister and the mayor got together; Tina and Mookie did not last

In the discussion (7)

Approx. transcript time · 01:30:30Read transcript

Whether Mookie threw the trash can to save Sal or out of rage is unanswerable; both can be argued, given his fealty to Sal as a kind of third son and the sense that someone has to pay for the death.
Pino is angry because he tried to step to a black girl and was rejected; Vito is not mad.
Asked how long it took Mookie and Sal to patch things up, given later Lee films, the answer is that they never did: he needed a job and Sal needed a delivery person.
Mother Sister and the mayor had been together before and probably spent the rest of their lives together, after she made him shower.
Tina and Mookie did not stay together.
Was Sal's pizza good? The pizza looks like clay; the story told is that the tight budget left only two pizzas and Turturro could not cut through them.
One participant would not eat Sal's pizza.

Who Won the Movie?

Spike Lee

In the discussion (4)

Approx. transcript time · 01:36:48Read transcript

Spike Lee won: the film made his career, is one of the greatest movies the country has produced, and inspired generations to make movies.
Lee lets actors from Edward Norton to his own sister give good performances.
Clockers is a second-favorite Lee film with his greatest ending, solving Richard Price script problems with moral clarity, as in his Katrina documentary and 4 Little Girls.
This is the film Lee should be proudest of: a perfect movie about an imperfect problem America will not solve, which people will still watch in 100 years.

Podcast choices

Speaker not identified: Spike Lee

More from the conversation

A trailer cold open plays; the participants introduce themselves, and the film is framed as Spike Lee's 1989 masterwork and signature film.

Approx. transcript time · 00:01:21Read transcript

As stated on air: released by Universal, premiered at Cannes on May 19, 1989, a $6 million budget, $37 million at the box office, and 93% on Rotten Tomatoes.

Approx. transcript time · 00:02:57Read transcript

It is the 30-year anniversary; the film was famously not nominated for Best Picture in the year Driving Miss Daisy won, and received nominations for Lee's original screenplay and Danny Aiello's supporting performance.

Approx. transcript time · 00:04:12Read transcript

A first-viewing memory: about 13 years old, more interested in Weekend at Bernie's (jokingly a great double feature), with the controversy reaching Philadelphia and making the theater feel risky.

Approx. transcript time · 00:05:08Read transcript

The film was nightly local news in Philadelphia; seen on Chestnut Street in Center City and later shown in a social studies class of mostly black private-school students.

Approx. transcript time · 00:07:11Read transcript

The ending confused and electrified that young viewer: three endings, Sal throwing money at Mookie and weather small talk; one host says critics and columnists wrote as if it cut to black after the riot, ignoring the codas and the King and Malcolm X quotations.

Approx. transcript time · 00:08:41Read transcript

One host says critics assumed Lee endorsed Malcolm X over King and missed that the film is a dialectic that holds two thoughts at once.

Approx. transcript time · 00:10:40Read transcript

Set on one Bed-Stuy block in one day with a major ensemble; Ernest Dickerson's cinematography uses color to convey heat and Dutch angles only when unease is needed.

Approx. transcript time · 00:11:43Read transcript

The Wikipedia synopsis is debated: it omits Mookie and the texture, but one host says the Wall of Fame conflict is the movie, about what the pizzeria means to the neighborhood and who gets a foothold there.

Approx. transcript time · 00:12:38Read transcript

Unlike comfort rewatches such as Beverly Hills Cop or Wedding Crashers, this film is fun but works hard to disrupt comfort; the ending still brings tears once Radio Raheem is grabbed.

Approx. transcript time · 00:15:35Read transcript

One host is a proponent of the view that nobody does the right thing, while others argue Mookie does.

Approx. transcript time · 00:17:51Read transcript

Red Hook Summer shows Mookie delivering pizza for a relocated Sal's, though Lee said it was not a sequel.

Approx. transcript time · 00:18:53Read transcript

The hosts cite the real incidents behind the film as they state them: Howard Beach, the death of a graffiti artist, a list of names including Eleanor Bumpurs and Michael Stewart, the Central Park Five arrests that summer, and Yusuf Hawkins, to whom Jungle Fever is dedicated.

Approx. transcript time · 00:21:27Read transcript

David Denby's June 26, 1989 New York Magazine review is read at length and called one of the worst pieces of film criticism; other hostile pieces came from Newsweek, Joe Klein (framing it as a problem for David Dinkins), and Stanley Crouch.

Approx. transcript time · 00:23:05Read transcript

One host says critiques of Lee routinely invoked his money and fame from Mars Blackmon and Michael Jordan commercials, unlike Ernest Dickerson, though usually irrelevant to the matter at hand.

Approx. transcript time · 00:24:43Read transcript

Smiley, carrying a photo of Malcolm X and King together, is the one person equipped to give the history lesson whom nobody will hear; the actor lived nearby, begged daily to be in the film and created the character.

Approx. transcript time · 00:28:01Read transcript

The film is called perfect and the go-to answer to 'favorite movie', once avoided because a black critic naming it seemed predictable; it is specifically black and Italian and open to the Korean bodega owners.

Approx. transcript time · 00:29:57Read transcript

Best American movie of the 1980s: often in that conversation with Broadcast News; the decade is bookended by Raging Bull and this film; After Hours and The King of Comedy are named as favorite 1980s Scorsese.

Approx. transcript time · 00:32:19Read transcript

Discussion of criticism: some Ebert should be sprinkled on the hostile reviews; one host avoids starting from moral outrage; one host says race short-circuits people's common sense.

Approx. transcript time · 01:09:27Read transcript

The outrage proves the film's power, and the controversy drew attention and helped Lee's maverick persona; comparisons to Basic Instinct and The Matrix lead to a WALL-E and airport tangent.

Approx. transcript time · 01:11:05Read transcript

A pizza debate: the worst New York pizza is called better than most California food, with a nod to the Los Angeles-based producer; it is framed as praise of New York pizza rather than a knock on California.

Approx. transcript time · 01:34:52Read transcript

Sign-off: 'always do the right thing, especially in 2020'.

Approx. transcript time · 01:39:15Read transcript