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The dam waterfall jump

Bill Simmons: The category opens by naming the aborted bus escape and train crash as about as fun a five minutes as an action movie gets, followed by a clip of Tommy Lee Jones taking over the investigation.

Bill Simmons: Tommy Lee Jones's entrance is rated about as good as any, compared with Hopkins's Hannibal Lecter; he owns the movie from the moment he shows up.

"I don't care."

Bill Simmons: Clips played include 'I don't care', the leg irons with no legs, 'I don't bargain', and 'Our fugitive's name is Dr. Richard Kimble.'

The film

The Fugitive (1993)

Directed by Andrew Davis · Action

130 minutes

Cast

Selected cast credits · Film reference

Harrison Ford Dr. Richard Kimble
Tommy Lee Jones Deputy U.S. Marshal Sam Gerard
Sela Ward Helen Kimble
Joe Pantoliano Deputy U.S. Marshal Cosmo Renfro
Andreas Katsulas Fredrick Sykes
Jeroen Krabbé Dr. Charles Nichols
Daniel Roebuck Deputy U.S. Marshal Robert Biggs
Tom Wood Deputy U.S. Marshal Noah Newman
L. Scott Caldwell Deputy U.S. Marshal Erin Poole
Johnny Lee Davenport Deputy U.S. Marshal Henry
Julianne Moore Dr. Anne Eastman
Ron Dean Detective Kelly
Joseph Kosala Detective Rosetti
Jane Lynch Dr. Kathy Wahlund
Dick Cusack Attorney Walter Gutherie
Andy Romano Judge Bennett
Nick Searcy Sheriff Rawlins
Eddie Bo Smith Copeland
Neil Flynn Transit Cop
Richard Riehle Old Guard
Kirsten Nelson Hospital Secretary
David Darlow Dr. Alec Lentz
Frank Ray Perilli Corrections Officer
Lester Holt Newscaster
David U. Hodges Marshal David
John M. Watson Sr. Bones Roosevelt
Roland Burris Smiling Man in Parade

Everything from the episode

In the order the hosts got to it. Open a row for the discussion.

9:54

Most Rewatchable Scene

The dam waterfall jump

The dam waterfall jump

In the discussion (8)
Approx. transcript time · 00:09:54Read transcript
  • The category opens by naming the aborted bus escape and train crash as about as fun a five minutes as an action movie gets, followed by a clip of Tommy Lee Jones taking over the investigation. — Bill Simmons
  • Tommy Lee Jones's entrance is rated about as good as any, compared with Hopkins's Hannibal Lecter; he owns the movie from the moment he shows up. — Bill Simmons
  • The nominees are the aborted bus escape and train crash, Tommy Lee Jones taking over the investigation, the dam waterfall jump, and the ending, called the big four. — Bill Simmons
  • One participant goes with the dam: it is played realistically, with Ford visibly weighing a no-win jump, and it is called the best part of his performance, including the moment he puts down the gun. — Chris Ryan
  • The dam scene contains 'I don't care', called maybe the best line in the movie and said to be ad-libbed by Tommy Lee Jones. — Andy Greenwald
  • The early face-to-face meeting is praised as smart construction, followed by Gerard's orders to turn the dam off and a joke about the U.S. Marshals budget. — Andy Greenwald
  • A second participant says they are with Chris and like the dam scene. — Andy Greenwald
  • The third participant picks the bus escape and train crash, joking about the prisoners' silent plan, the bus flipping without deaths, the guards near retirement, and the guard who survives a toothbrush stabbing.
15:35

Casting What-Ifs

Alec Baldwin, Michael Douglas, Kevin Costner or Andy Garcia as Kimble; Jon Voight or Gene Hackman as Gerard; Walter H...

Alec Baldwin, Michael Douglas, Kevin Costner or Andy Garcia as Kimble; Jon Voight or Gene Hackman as Gerard; Walter Hill directing Nick Nolte

In the discussion (7)
Approx. transcript time · 00:15:35Read transcript
  • Alec Baldwin was the first choice to play Richard Kimble; he had also been first offered Ford's Patriot Games role, which suggests Baldwin had more juice than Ford in 1992-93.
  • Baldwin reportedly wanted control of his career and too much money and did not want to be a franchise pawn; Patriot Games is contrasted with Hunt for Red October.
  • A correction: this was not the end of Ford's heyday because Air Force One was still ahead; Six Days, Seven Nights, overshadowed by a controversy around its co-star, is called the real end.
  • Michael Douglas, Kevin Costner and Andy Garcia were also considered for Kimble; only Costner is found believable because Kimble needs something wholesome, while Douglas and Baldwin seem like they might have done it.
  • Jon Voight and Gene Hackman were both offered Sam Gerard, prompting a riff that Voight gets attached to many projects; Varsity Blues is teased for Zach Mack. — Chris Ryan
  • Walter Hill wanted to direct with Nick Nolte, who thought he was too old; one participant would have loved a Walter Hill version but thinks it worked out.
  • Ford is better the less he says; his doctor-talk scene with Julianne Moore almost pulls you out of the movie. — Andy Greenwald
19:06

What’s Aged the Best?

Tommy Lee Jones

Tommy Lee Jones

In the discussion (6)
Approx. transcript time · 00:19:06Read transcript
  • The options offered are the train scene, the dam scene and Tommy Lee Jones. — Andy Greenwald
  • One participant goes with TLJ, a second says TLJ too, and the third agrees, while noting the set pieces are worth considering.
  • The performance is timeless like Hopkins in Silence of the Lambs and Lillard in Scream; a Sam Gerard U.S. Marshal TV show would be watched every week.
  • The physical train set piece now looks almost quaint, whereas the character-based dam scene is timeless. — Andy Greenwald
  • No one of that generation could have played Gerard as well; William Holden is floated from the 70s, John Cusack is a cautionary example, and Hackman is the only other option though less fit for chasing through a sewer. — Andy Greenwald
  • Tommy Lee Jones improvised or tweaked much of his dialogue, including 'hinky' and the chocolate donut with sprinkles; every great line is his, called his Mona Lisa.
22:01

What’s Aged the Worst?

Train-scene CGI; Harrison Ford's beard; missing DNA evidence; pre-cell-phone premise; cardigans; bus accident

Train-scene CGI; Harrison Ford's beard; missing DNA evidence; pre-cell-phone premise; cardigans; bus accident

In the discussion (8)
Approx. transcript time · 00:22:01Read transcript
  • The train and dam scenes lacked the right CGI; Ford was filmed on a wire against a green screen, and the one-chance crash cost about a million dollars. — Bill Simmons
  • The train arrived faster than planned (42 versus 35 mph) and six Harrison Ford dummies, made for about 75 grand, were all destroyed. — Bill Simmons
  • The CGI in the train scene is one nomination.
  • Harrison Ford's beard is nominated; another participant loves it as facial-hair acting, and the hospital shave and egg sandwich are recalled.
  • The lack of DNA evidence in Kimble's conviction ages badly when watched in 2017, including the DA's 'voice from the grave' evidence.
  • Like many movies of the era, cell phones would have prevented the story; Kimble can waltz anywhere, and Enemy of the State already shows a different world. — Andy Greenwald
  • An early sequence where everyone wears tweed blazers, corrected to cardigans, is a major issue for one participant; outfit changes are deferred to nitpicks.
  • Another pick is not the train crash but the bus accident, which feels like a matchbox bus rolling down a sand mound. — Chris Ryan
26:27

Half-Assed Internet Research

Development history; Ford ligament injury; Dillsboro wreck site; crash and dam costs; unscripted parade chase; Richar...

Development history; Ford ligament injury; Dillsboro wreck site; crash and dam costs; unscripted parade chase; Richard Jordan replaced; improvised donut line; Pantoliano and Ward lobbying; love-interest rewrites

In the discussion (11)
Approx. transcript time · 00:26:27Read transcript
  • The script took five years, with nine screenwriters and more than 25 drafts, and Tommy Lee Jones ad-libbed his lines anyway. — Bill Simmons
  • Ford damaged leg ligaments filming the woods scenes and delayed surgery so his character would limp, prompting a riff that Ford is unbreakable.
  • The wrecked train and bus remain a tourist attraction in Dillsboro, North Carolina, leading to jokes that it is the home of Tate Frasier (as transcribed). — Bill Simmons
  • The crash cost $1 million to film and the dam scene cost twice as much, $2 million. — Bill Simmons
  • The St. Patrick's Day parade chase was not scripted; Andrew Davis, a Chicago director, followed Ford and Jones with a Steadicam without permits, and parade-goers were genuinely reacting to Ford. — Bill Simmons
  • Richard Jordan, originally cast as Dr. Nichols, fell ill with a brain tumor and died three weeks after release; Ford refilmed his first scene with the replacement, whose beard looked slightly different. — Bill Simmons
  • Tommy Lee Jones improvised 'think me up a cup of coffee and a chocolate donut with some of those little sprinkles on top.' — Bill Simmons
  • Joey Pants lobbied for Cosmo Renfro to survive in case of a sequel, and was in the sequel; Sela Ward reportedly lobbied for her character to be in a coma instead of dying. — Bill Simmons
  • Sela Ward is thought to have deserved a bigger career.
  • Julianne Moore's part was reportedly meant to be a love interest, and Jane Lynch's researcher possibly too; deleted scenes may exist on a later release.
  • Two Cosmos in 1993: Cosmo Renfro and Cosmo Kramer. — Bill Simmons
34:11

The Dion Waiters Award for Best Heat Check Performance

Bald Black convict on the train; Jeroen Krabbé

Bald Black convict on the train; Jeroen Krabbé

In the discussion (7)
Approx. transcript time · 00:34:11Read transcript
  • Tommy Lee Jones is disqualified from the award. — Bill Simmons
  • Nominees include the one-armed man (Katsulas) and the bald Black convict on the train, who is said to deserve his own sequel or the U.S. Marshals fugitive role; Joey Pants and Dr. Charles Nichols make four candidates. — Bill Simmons
  • A write-in candidate is all the reporters at the Tommy Lee Jones press conference, including an actor from Veep and two apparent real Chicago columnists. — Chris Ryan
  • Side note: Andreas Katsulas was on Babylon 5 and has died; its creator said he loved smoking with a passion that cannot be described. — Andy Greenwald
  • One participant names the bald Black convict the winner: in three scenes he goes 'seven for eight with ten rebounds.' — Andy Greenwald
  • Another makes a small argument for Krabbé (transcribed 'Jerome Krabb'), who must have laughed at the script and is dining out on those scenes. — Andy Greenwald
  • The Nichols character is obviously the villain as soon as he reappears; he is not plausible as Kimble's friend, and the Charlie and Chuck names do not fit a Dutchman. — Andy Greenwald
38:06

Apex Mountain

Jeroen Krabbé; Tommy Lee Jones; Andreas Katsulas

Jeroen Krabbé; Tommy Lee Jones; Andreas Katsulas

In the discussion (8)
Approx. transcript time · 00:38:06Read transcript
  • After Transporter 3 is mentioned, Apex Mountain starts with Krabbé: this was his apex, absolutely, since no other movie of his comes to mind.
  • Harrison Ford: obviously not. — Andy Greenwald
  • Sela Ward: no; Once and Again is raised as her breakout. — Andy Greenwald
  • Tommy Lee Jones: unquestionably yes, with No Country for Old Men the only counterargument.
  • There is no argument for Harrison Ford here; his apex is the first Raiders, coming amid the Star Wars trilogy.
  • The one-armed man, Andreas Katsulas: definitely.
  • This is not Joe Pantoliano's apex; candidates raised include The Sopranos, Guido the Killer Pimp, The Matrix, Bad Boys, Eddie and the Cruisers, Running Scared and Risky Business.
  • A case is made that The Fugitive was the apex of Pantoliano being likable and welcome, when people recognized him and were excited he was there. — Andy Greenwald
43:05

Unintentional Comedy Award

Harrison Ford's beard; hair-dye scene; pre-CGI one-armed man; Katsulas's first interrogation; cops not recognizing Ki...

Harrison Ford's beard; hair-dye scene; pre-CGI one-armed man; Katsulas's first interrogation; cops not recognizing Kimble

In the discussion (5)
Approx. transcript time · 00:43:05Read transcript
  • Harrison Ford's beard makes one participant laugh.
  • The scene of Kimble vigorously dyeing his hair and the face on the product box stays with one participant. — Andy Greenwald
  • The pre-CGI one-armed man is kind of funny: the arm is visibly pinned in, and he always wears an overcoat.
  • Katsulas's first interrogation by Tommy Lee Jones plays like a 1970s movie, compared to a '70s eating guy' sketch. — Andy Greenwald
  • Possibly a nitpick: despite constant media coverage, no cop recognizes Kimble or considers he shaved his beard; a cop asks the disguised fugitive if he has seen the man and gets the reply 'I see him every day in the mirror', earning 'dumbest cop ever.'
46:25

Picking Nits

No lawyer; rushed trial; youngest cop says 'book him'; painless beard shave; Nichols's names and help; unclear motive...

No lawyer; rushed trial; youngest cop says 'book him'; painless beard shave; Nichols's names and help; unclear motive to kill Kimble's wife; Provasic focus; one-armed hitman; Sela Ward's rose petals

In the discussion (10)
Approx. transcript time · 00:46:25Read transcript
  • Kimble, a smart doctor and the clear sole suspect, never gets a lawyer, and the 18-27 month trial is yada-yada'd into a first-degree murder conviction on a phone call and an insurance motive.
  • Gerard is the first to suggest a rich doctor may not need the insurance money. — Andy Greenwald
  • In the rapid-fire interrogation, the youngest-looking cop is the one who gets to say 'book him.' — Andy Greenwald
  • Shaving off a grown beard always hurts, yet Kimble shaves with an old guy's razor and scissors and looks great; the counter is that he stitched himself up without flinching.
  • Would anyone really call Dr. Nichols Chuck or Charlie; why would Nichols help Kimble with money at all. — Bill Simmons
  • Why they had to kill Kimble and his wife doesn't make sense, compared with The Firm; the last third spends too much time on Provasic, though a counterpoint says it foretold the pharma industry.
  • Context questions: the Silence of the Lambs-style misdirect is used about five times, and a modern version would add a twist; the helicopter search and isolated L train audio felt cutting edge then. — Andy Greenwald
  • Why the friend didn't turn him in right away, and the long Devlin MacGregor fishing-trip exposition. — Bill Simmons
  • The one-armed hitman is too risky and should have afforded a nicer apartment; the counter is that he must be twice as good at security with half the arms.
  • Sela Ward's rose-petal homecoming gilds the lily; one participant says it should have been in most dated. — Andy Greenwald
56:05

Is This Movie Better With…?

Danny Trejo as a bus prisoner

Danny Trejo as a bus prisoner

In the discussion (5)
Approx. transcript time · 00:56:05Read transcript
  • The segment is introduced as a new category that came from a reader. — Bill Simmons
  • Yes: he would have been one of the prisoners on the bus, called a great, easy call. — Bill Simmons
  • Alternatives: Trejo as the one-armed man, as Sam Gerard, or as a marshal who refuses to fetch the donut. — Chris Ryan
  • A third-act twist: the other one-armed man interviewed in prison is Trejo with an arm.
  • The new category is declared a huge success, with jokes about retroactively applying it to Silence of the Lambs and Heat. — Bill Simmons
57:06

The Neil McCauley “A Book about Metals” Award for Best Line from the Movie

"I don't care."

"I don't care."

In the discussion (4)
Approx. transcript time · 00:57:06Read transcript
  • Clips played include 'I don't care', the leg irons with no legs, 'I don't bargain', and 'Our fugitive's name is Dr. Richard Kimble.' — Bill Simmons
  • The 'I don't bargain' scene is clarified: the line is not 'I don't miss', and it is whispered to a man whose hearing was damaged.
  • The ponytailed marshal is the one who gets killed in U.S. Marshals.
  • The best quote is 'I don't care'; he actually did it (transcribed 'he had lived it', apparently the ad-lib), and Tommy Lee Jones is jokingly credited as screenwriter. — Andy Greenwald
58:48

Probably Unanswerable Questions

DNA evidence; surviving the dam jump; Charlie's money; how Kimble lived on the run; Gerard's search strategy; missing...

DNA evidence; surviving the dam jump; Charlie's money; how Kimble lived on the run; Gerard's search strategy; missing character witnesses

In the discussion (6)
Approx. transcript time · 00:58:48Read transcript
  • The movie was pre-OJ; DNA evidence would clear Kimble within about a week, though the scratch is raised as a complication. — Bill Simmons
  • Would anyone survive the dam waterfall jump? No, and he comes out better, as if finishing a triathlon. — Bill Simmons
  • How much money did Charlie give him, given that he immediately rents a home, buys clothes and eats fresh fruit. — Andy Greenwald
  • The weeks of Kimble surviving on the run are yada-yada'd: how did he eat and where did he sleep.
  • Why couldn't master marshal Gerard catch a man limping in a straight line along a river for three days. — Andy Greenwald
  • A late question: Kimble is a saintly man who never kills anyone, so where were the character witnesses at his trial. — Bill Simmons
1:00:31

Sequel, Prequel, Limited Series, or All-Black Remake

11-episode Netflix series with Jon Hamm or Mark Ruffalo as Kimble and Viola Davis, Idris Elba or Michael Shannon as t...

11-episode Netflix series with Jon Hamm or Mark Ruffalo as Kimble and Viola Davis, Idris Elba or Michael Shannon as the marshal

In the discussion (11)
Approx. transcript time · 01:00:31Read transcript
  • An 11-episode Netflix show is accepted; the Devlin MacGregor plot is more believable now than in 1993. — Bill Simmons
  • One participant picks Mark Ruffalo as Kimble for his mix of intelligence, innocence and looking aggrieved.
  • Jon Hamm is proposed, then said to also have been another participant's choice: a believable doctor with a great jaw and big charismatic TV star.
  • Ruffalo's case is defended with a 'they knew' sequel joke, but he is later dismissed as busy with the Hulk.
  • The marshal should be Black or a woman to change the dynamic, with Viola Davis suggested; the pairing lands on Hamm and Viola.
  • Joey Pants could come out of retirement as an older Cosmo.
  • For a male minority Gerard, someone with a comedian background is suggested, with Chris Rock raised, and Idris Elba is proposed; Elba is questioned on sarcasm but defended via Molly's Game and Luther.
  • Liam Neeson as an older fugitive would not survive the dam; Brad Pitt would have been a great fugitive in a movie version. — Chris Ryan
  • A tech-era version would need to handle the internet, which makes it less of a pure ride; Will Smith basically already did it. — Andy Greenwald
  • Michael Shannon is suggested as Sam Gerard; one participant dislikes him.
  • The Fugitive should be a binge-watch show; a series could have a different fugitive, director and writer every season.
1:05:33

Who Won the Movie?

Tommy Lee Jones

Tommy Lee Jones

In the discussion (3)
Approx. transcript time · 01:05:33Read transcript
  • TLJ wins; the category is barely needed, and he is called the star of the movie.
  • He had been a respected character actor who played villains, was 47 at the time, and was on minds from JFK. — Chris Ryan
  • His career is traced from Coal Miner's Daughter and The Executioner's Song through JFK and Under Siege to The Client, Natural Born Killers, Cobb, Batman Forever and Men in Black; The Fugitive unleashed him.
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Tommy Lee Jones

More from the conversation

A trailer cold open is followed by the introduction of Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald (ASR 'Greenwalt'); The Fugitive is called one of the first four or five movies that come to mind as rewatchables, and a surprise August 1993 hit that came out 24 years ago.
Approx. transcript time · 00:00:40Read transcript
Expectations were low: a TV-show adaptation, an aging Harrison Ford and the director of Under Siege; one participant knew the property only from Letterman's Chris Elliott parody ending with a one-armed man.
Approx. transcript time · 00:01:46Read transcript
A case is made that this was the last great Harrison Ford movie, ending a run from the first Star Wars.
Approx. transcript time · 00:02:34Read transcript
Ford's name appears in the opening seconds as large as the title, and the neon block-letter credits font resembles Silence of the Lambs.
Approx. transcript time · 00:02:53Read transcript
Nothing on screen suggests anyone expected a hit; even the train crash is not fancy. Filming reportedly began in February 1993 for an August release after long development, with David Twohy and Jeb Stuart credited.
Approx. transcript time · 00:03:46Read transcript
It is called the only remake of a regular TV series nominated for Best Picture, followed by Baywatch and Miami Vice jokes and a teased Miami Vice episode.
Approx. transcript time · 00:04:34Read transcript
Tommy Lee Jones won Best Supporting Actor and this launched his era; Andrew Davis came off Under Siege, went on to a vanity project with Andy Garcia playing twins, and made some pretty good Steven Seagal movies.
Approx. transcript time · 00:04:59Read transcript
The Fugitive was one of the first great DVDs (March 1997 per a lookup); watching the train crash on a new surround setup is remembered as a great moment.
Approx. transcript time · 00:06:19Read transcript
The film's critical and commercial success was a shock, compared with The Martian; it is basically a B movie that gets straight to it and today would be a prestige TV show.
Approx. transcript time · 00:06:41Read transcript
The film could move faster: the stretch from the dam jump to the apartment drags; multiple screenwriters show in its chase, procedural and detective sections; the prosthetic-limb browsing scenes could be trimmed.
Approx. transcript time · 00:08:26Read transcript
The sequel U.S. Marshals did not do well despite a distracted Robert Downey Jr. and Wesley Snipes; Gerard works because he has no backstory, unlike 8mm's family scenes.
Approx. transcript time · 00:11:04Read transcript
Chicago character actors, such as the bus guard and two cops, dined out for a decade playing Chicago law enforcement, including in The Dark Knight and ER.
Approx. transcript time · 00:25:57Read transcript
Sela Ward and Julianne Moore are underused; Moore's Hand That Rocks the Cradle and Short Cuts are recalled.
Approx. transcript time · 00:32:28Read transcript
Who would have been better as Dr. Charles Nichols: Jason Robards, Gene Hackman (too obvious), Jon Voight (maybe too famous), Henry Rollins, and Ted Levine, greeted with 'done, ding, ding.' Not mapped to a registry category because no category label is spoken.
Approx. transcript time · 00:38:21Read transcript
Hypothetical: how would you react seeing a fugitive from the newspaper across from you on public transit; it depends on the crime, and Los Angeles has too little street interaction to find out.
Approx. transcript time · 00:45:30Read transcript
Julianne Moore's hair looks perfect the morning after an all-night shift; she may still be mad her scene was cut.
Approx. transcript time · 01:08:03Read transcript
Closing: the archive is estimated at '12, 13 movies now ... 10?', the next episode is unknown, Chris Ryan is thanked along with an unclear ASR name, listeners are asked to subscribe and email the mailbag, and Zach Mack is thanked.
Approx. transcript time · 01:08:18Read transcript

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