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The Rewatchables ·

Creed

year 2015decade 10sdirector Ryan Cooglergenre Sportsgenre Drama
host Bill Simmonsguest Wesley Morrishost Sean Fennesseyguest K. Austin Collins
All 14 categories

Most Rewatchable Scene · 31:23

Two-round one-shot fight with Leo

Bill Simmons: The Andre Ward cameo, when Adonis climbs in the ring to take on the whole gym and Ward knocks him out, is offered first.

Bill Simmons: Three great scenes are named: the two-round fight with Leo filmed in one shot, the seven-minute cancer-revival training sequence ending with the ATVs outside Rocky's house, and the 11th and 12th rounds of the final fight.

The Neil McCauley “A Book about Metals” Award for Best Line from the Movie · 1:18:04

"Prove him not a mistake"

Bill Simmons: The best quote is the line about proving he is not a mistake; others are invited to name another favorite, and it is called a really good one.

The film

Creed (2015)

Directed by Ryan Coogler · Sports

133 minutes

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Cast

Selected cast credits · Film reference

Michael B. Jordan Adonis Creed
Alex Henderson Young Adonis Johnson
Sylvester Stallone Rocky Balboa
Tessa Thompson Bianca Taylor
Phylicia Rashad Mary Anne Creed
Tony Bellew Ricky Conlan
Graham McTavish Tommy Holiday
Wood Harris Tony Little Duke Evers
Ritchie Coster Pete Sporino
Andre Ward Danny Wheeler
Gabriel Rosado Leo Sporino
Liev Schreiber HBO24/7announcer
Michael Buffer Himself
Tony Kornheiser Himself
Michael Wilbon Himself
Hannah Storm Herself
Max Kellerman Himself
Jim Lampley Himself
Carl Weathers Apollo Creed (archive footage)

Everything from the episode

In the order the hosts got to it. Open a row for the discussion.

31:23

Most Rewatchable Scene

Two-round one-shot fight with Leo

Two-round one-shot fight with Leo

In the discussion (18)
Approx. transcript time · 00:31:23Read transcript
  • The Andre Ward cameo, when Adonis climbs in the ring to take on the whole gym and Ward knocks him out, is offered first. — Bill Simmons
  • Three great scenes are named: the two-round fight with Leo filmed in one shot, the seven-minute cancer-revival training sequence ending with the ATVs outside Rocky's house, and the 11th and 12th rounds of the final fight. — Bill Simmons
  • The one-shot fight is called an all-time how-did-they-do-this scene, with the camera cutting to Jordan and Stallone and whirling back around. — Bill Simmons
  • The cinematographer Alberti, who also shot The Wrestler, is praised, and Creed is called a much better-shot movie than The Wrestler. — Wesley Morris
  • The ATV training sequence is a genuine stand-up-in-your-seat moment, an urban 2015 version of the Rocky run 40 years later. — Bill Simmons
  • The final fight's 11th and 12th rounds, with the towel nearly thrown and the line about proving he is not a mistake, are called a great, stressful five minutes. — Bill Simmons
  • The two-round one-shot match is called the best boxing scene ever seen and gets a vote. — Bill Simmons
  • A second vote for the one-shot fight: beyond technical mastery it tells a story, as the trainer's tip in the ring leads to the knockout a minute later, building their bond, followed by the 'you didn't tell me you had hands like that' moment. — Sean Fennessey
  • Bianca's hands line prompts a joke about what it implies about sleeping with him.
  • Asked about the ATV scene, a panelist loves it and adds the warm-up before the last fight, rocking back and forth while being talked into it, and receiving the gloves and trunks.
  • Bianca's Philly slang 'John' (jawn) would have worked better with the accent; one panelist saw the movie in Philadelphia with a sleepy crowd. — Wesley Morris
  • Another answer agrees on the one-shot fight and adds the scene where the vomiting in the ring reveals Rocky's illness, a painterly, Renaissance-lit presentation, later tied to Adonis saying he will fight if Rocky fights. — Wesley Morris
  • Many things are needlessly beautiful: the first kiss shot upside down and the booth framing on their first date.
  • Rashad's performance in the first scene, with its spacing and sense of history, gave complete confidence in the movie.
  • The juvenile detention tracking shot, the long deep-focus shot with the supervisor watching in the background, and Leo's dad eyeing Rocky at the gym are cited as touches of a good filmmaker. — Wesley Morris
  • Another pick is the two-round match while also riding with the ATV scene, which gains context from the Eagles' Super Bowl and the Meek Mill song; kids who find Rocky slow like Creed. — Bill Simmons
  • The ATV scene honors Bill Conti's score, going slow motion and quiet mid-song, and the theme hits as the final round begins. — Bill Simmons
  • A late addition: the jail scene where an angry Adonis tells Rocky off and Stallone slow-plays it is called really good acting. — Bill Simmons
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42:23

Casting What-Ifs

None found

None found

In the discussion (2)
Approx. transcript time · 00:42:23Read transcript
  • No casting what-ifs could be found; such stories usually take about 10 years to surface and are probably inaccurate. — Bill Simmons
  • Beyond Coogler, Jordan and Stallone, Tessa Thompson is assumed to be the one who had to audition; she did the best she could with a bold choice.
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45:29

The Dion Waiters Award for Best Heat Check Performance

Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon; Ritchie Coster; Phylicia Rashad

Tony Kornheiser and Michael Wilbon; Ritchie Coster; Phylicia Rashad

In the discussion (5)
Approx. transcript time · 00:45:29Read transcript
  • Nominees are Tessa Thompson, Wood Harris and Andre Ward, with the PTI hosts named winners for an in-universe Apollo Creed legacy segment ('Oh, I don't know, Tony').
  • Another suggestion is the actor playing Leo's father, heard as Richie Costa, also of True Detective season two, who looked related to Leo, played by real fighter Gabriel Rosado; 'That'd be my vote.'
  • Asked next, a panelist picks Rashad: sports-movie cutaways to people watching are a flaw in nearly every sports movie, with Secretariat's race montage the best exception, but her fired-up reaction during the fight makes it worth it. — Wesley Morris
  • A Diane Lane aside follows, with lifetime Diane Lane season tickets and a teased Unfaithful rewatchable. — Wesley Morris
  • Another panelist did not vote for Rashad because Apollo's wife from Rocky IV was not brought back, hoping that actress at least auditioned. — Bill Simmons
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50:02

What’s Aged the Best?

Music and score; Rocky's answer about the third Apollo fight; HBO 24/7 segment; Philadelphia setting; Hail Mary entra...

Music and score; Rocky's answer about the third Apollo fight; HBO 24/7 segment; Philadelphia setting; Hail Mary entrance music; ending on the steps; training montages

In the discussion (7)
Approx. transcript time · 00:50:02Read transcript
  • The movie came out only two and a half years ago, so just a couple of picks, starting with the music and score. — Bill Simmons
  • Adonis asking Rocky who won the secret third fight with Apollo is a hardcore-fan Easter egg; the answer given is that Apollo won, though that may have been meant to make him feel good. — Bill Simmons
  • The HBO 24/7 segment with Pretty Ricky, which Adonis watches on his phone, is praised. — Sean Fennessey
  • The Philly feel is done well without much cheating, and the ATV scene in Philly was a surprise.
  • Tupac's Hail Mary as entrance music is enjoyed; the opponent's British hip-hop entrance music is also striking.
  • The ending on the steps, with Rocky barely making it up and turning around to the city, probably should not have worked but does. — Bill Simmons
  • Everything that would read as saccharine on the page isn't; even the multiple training montages, usually skipped on rewatch, make one want to stand and cheer.
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52:57

What’s Aged the Worst?

Runtime; Bianca's music

Runtime; Bianca's music

In the discussion (3)
Approx. transcript time · 00:52:57Read transcript
  • It is 12 to 13 minutes too long; the Ireland trips and the cancer battle may run longer than needed.
  • It could have been two 90-minute movies split at the two-round knockout; the second act feels compressed, with Conlan's people negotiating after one fight and Conlan's prison-bound story underdeveloped, so it is too long and also too short. — Sean Fennessey
  • Bianca's music is called not aging well; the hearing aid and music career were meant to make her unconventional, but she was still the conventional girlfriend who also cooks dinner. — Wesley Morris
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54:25

The Ruffalo / Hanna / Rubinek / Partridge Overacting Award

None

None

In the discussion (1)
Approx. transcript time · 00:54:25Read transcript
  • No overacting was felt in this movie; Jim Lampley is floated and rejected because he crushed it. — Bill Simmons
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1:00:29

Half-Assed Internet Research

Flag trunks request; real punch taken; Victor Cafe location; 24-pound muscle gain; Adrian's maiden name

Flag trunks request; real punch taken; Victor Cafe location; 24-pound muscle gain; Adrian's maiden name

In the discussion (6)
Approx. transcript time · 01:00:29Read transcript
  • Stallone requested that Jordan wear the flag trunks from Rocky 1, 3 and 4. — Bill Simmons
  • Jordan really got clocked in the 11th round after Stallone challenged him to take one; the story from a 2015 podcast is promised at the end. — Bill Simmons
  • The knockdown and fantasy revival montage is compared to the heart-shaped herb sequence in Black Panther. — Wesley Morris
  • Adrian's restaurant scenes were filmed at the Victor Cafe in Philadelphia. — Wesley Morris
  • Jordan gained 24 pounds of muscle, working out two to three times a day six days a week, and looks even bigger in Black Panther.
  • Adrian's maiden name (heard as Pernino), said by the priest at Rocky and Adrian's wedding, was a favorite trivia test; Paulie is called a terrible brother with reprehensible behavior in Rocky. — Bill Simmons
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1:03:17

Apex Mountain

No affirmative selection

No affirmative selection

In the discussion (10)
Approx. transcript time · 01:03:17Read transcript
  • Apex Mountain is called too tough to say for Coogler and Jordan. — Bill Simmons
  • With the Black Panther performance polarizing, there is a chance Creed could be Jordan's Apex Mountain; who knows.
  • Jordan's path: Wallace on The Wire as a vision of lost innocence, Vince Howard on Friday Night Lights, a Parenthood stretch and a nothing part in Chronicle. — Sean Fennessey
  • Fruitvale made him a star, then Fantastic Four as Johnny Storm and That Awkward Moment raised worries it was over.
  • Denzel's first ten years had shaky choices too (Carbon Copy, Virtuosity), but those mistakes were interesting while Jordan's are conventional because they are the only options now. — Wesley Morris
  • Next to more seasoned actors, including his Black Panther co-star, Stallone and Rashad, some layers are missing; Jordan is hungry and intense, compared to Angela Bassett at 10 all the time. — Wesley Morris
  • A joke says he needs a Man on Fire-style detective role.
  • His Killmonger is a maximum-intensity read of a radical character among classically trained co-stars; the hope is he works with other directors and then returns to Coogler. — Wesley Morris
  • The pairing is compared to Scorsese and De Niro; one panelist says that is unfair to Jordan because De Niro was positioned by filmmakers; Coogler communicates differently from media-trained people, 'so bay.'
  • Midnight Run is named a favorite De Niro performance, with a debate over favorite versus best.
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1:15:53

Picking Nits

Missing Duke cameo; rushed lymphoma recovery; closed-eye makeup; Conlan's physique

Missing Duke cameo; rushed lymphoma recovery; closed-eye makeup; Conlan's physique

In the discussion (4)
Approx. transcript time · 01:15:53Read transcript
  • Apollo's old trainer Duke was the only one there in Rocky IV and could have had a cameo; he is still alive. — Bill Simmons
  • Rocky's lymphoma battle runs through too fast; flying to Europe to train a fighter weeks later is a quick recovery, another reason it should be two movies. — Bill Simmons
  • Adonis's closed left eye in the 12th round sits too low, a makeup error. — Bill Simmons
  • Conlan is not in shape for a light heavyweight champion even though the actor is a real boxer; Jordan's physique throws off what a real boxer looks like, though actors always do that.
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1:16:01

Unintentional Comedy Award

Skipped

Skipped

In the discussion (1)
Approx. transcript time · 01:16:01Read transcript
  • The award is skipped because nothing beyond the Baby Creed scene qualified, and that was only borderline. — Bill Simmons
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1:18:04

The Neil McCauley “A Book about Metals” Award for Best Line from the Movie

"Prove him not a mistake"

"Prove him not a mistake"

In the discussion (1)
Approx. transcript time · 01:18:04Read transcript
  • The best quote is the line about proving he is not a mistake; others are invited to name another favorite, and it is called a really good one. — Bill Simmons
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1:18:19

Is This Movie Better With…?

Danny Trejo

Danny Trejo

In the discussion (2)
Approx. transcript time · 01:18:19Read transcript
  • Every movie is better with Trejo; he could be in the corner as a cut man, the security guard at the juvenile detention center, or Leo's dad. — Bill Simmons
  • Casting him as Leo's dad is called a big home-run swing; a boxing movie without him feels wrong, and recasting Rocky as Trejo is floated. — Bill Simmons
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1:18:48

Probably Unanswerable Questions

Timeline of Apollo fathering Adonis

Timeline of Apollo fathering Adonis

In the discussion (3)
Approx. transcript time · 01:18:48Read transcript
  • The only question is the timeline of Apollo fathering Adonis around his summer 1985 comeback training for the Drago exhibition. — Bill Simmons
  • If set in 2015, Adonis must be at least 29, late for a boxer; he had 15 fights in Mexico after a job, so he has been fighting a few years. — Bill Simmons
  • Whether it is set in 2015 is questioned; the music, especially Bianca's, is the giveaway. — Wesley Morris
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1:22:43

Who Won the Movie?

Ryan Coogler

Ryan Coogler

In the discussion (7)
Approx. transcript time · 01:22:43Read transcript
  • Stallone cannot win because his Golden Globe speech failed to thank Coogler first, which may have cost him the Oscar; he seemed apologetic. — Bill Simmons
  • Asked Coogler or Michael B, the answer is Coogler.
  • Another goes with Coogler too: the movie could have gone wrong a hundred ways and he made it great, and with Black Panther this movie gets him the nod.
  • Next, Stallone losing the Oscar to Mark Rylance is lamented, with a jab that Chris Ryan would respect Rylance; 'It has to be Ryan Coogler.'
  • Black Panther would not happen this way without Creed being a great film people wanted to see. — Sean Fennessey
  • A participant invited by name at the end, after being asked whether his mic is on, says Coogler won it for Stallone by reviving his acting career with a nomination and reviving the dead Rocky franchise, two victories; called the best take yet. — Wesley Morris
  • Creed 2 is reportedly Creed against Drago's son, without Coogler. — Bill Simmons
Podcast choices
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More from the conversation

Intro calls this about the second-longest Rewatchables; it discusses Coogler's career arc after Black Panther and veers into where movies are going.
Approx. transcript time · 00:01:07Read transcript
Cold open of Rocky V/VI/Creed reaction and trailer audio.
Approx. transcript time · 00:01:50Read transcript
Creed is constantly on Epix; framing facts: Coogler's second movie and second collaboration with Michael B. Jordan, first Rocky movie not written by Stallone, $174 million, 95% on Rotten Tomatoes, Stallone nominated for Best Supporting Actor and did not win.
Approx. transcript time · 00:03:17Read transcript
Rocky V murdered the franchise in 1990; Rocky Balboa (2006) had good fight scenes and a bad love story; Creed pretends V and VI never happened.
Approx. transcript time · 00:04:27Read transcript
Tessa Thompson's Bianca instantly recognizing Rocky shows he is still an icon; her Philadelphia accent is called bad, compared with Joanne Woodward in Philadelphia and Hemsworth's accent in Blackhat.
Approx. transcript time · 00:05:51Read transcript
Chris Ryan was supposed to be on the episode and had to go away; a substitute calls himself the RC Cola to Chris's Coca-Cola.
Approx. transcript time · 00:07:08Read transcript
Chris Ryan was supposed to be on this episode and had to go away.
Approx. transcript time · 00:07:08Read transcript
The most interesting thing is that Stallone gave up the steering wheel; luck that he bought into Coogler's vision and that Coogler, about 28 with one movie, is one of the most talented directors in 35 years.
Approx. transcript time · 00:07:24Read transcript
Stallone's performance is called beautiful and his Oscar loss disappointing; the Adonis-Rocky bond is called romantic and paralleled with Coogler and Stallone.
Approx. transcript time · 00:08:46Read transcript
Coogler's personal loss and Stallone's son dying during filming; the photo of Stallone and his son in Paulie's room was emotional for Stallone, who was talked into it.
Approx. transcript time · 00:09:30Read transcript
Stallone conversation: biggest star in the world from 1982 to 1986; comparison with Carl Weathers lacking Stallone's charisma; good in First Blood and Cop Land; Lords of Flatbush and Paradise Alley; race in the Rocky series and Clubber Lang.
Approx. transcript time · 00:10:40Read transcript
Cliffhanger and Daylight are called legitimately good Stallone movies; everyone in the Daylight tunnel should have died.
Approx. transcript time · 00:14:54Read transcript
Stallone created the American action star and opened the door for unconventional-looking 80s action stars (Schwarzenegger, Van Damme, Seagal); in Rocky he was doing Brando-style animal magnetism.
Approx. transcript time · 00:15:16Read transcript
The Rocky I pre-fight scene with Adrian is not well acted but likable; in Creed his performance is quiet and weighty, not muscled through.
Approx. transcript time · 00:15:59Read transcript
Stallone and Tom Cruise always knew who they were; Stallone never played a villain and stayed on brand, with Stop! Or My Mom Will Shoot and Rhinestone as exceptions.
Approx. transcript time · 00:16:46Read transcript
Over the Top and Cobra as formative good-bad movies watched on TV; Over the Top as the best arm-wrestling/divorce movie; Real Steel comparison.
Approx. transcript time · 00:17:37Read transcript
Comebacks: Tarantino reviving Travolta, Burt Reynolds in Boogie Nights; Stallone in a good role in a good movie is called probably the favorite thing about Creed and his best 21st-century work, unlike other 80s action stars' revivals.
Approx. transcript time · 00:18:57Read transcript
A Death Wish rewatchable is teased as a different episode.
Approx. transcript time · 00:19:48Read transcript
Stallone directed Staying Alive with Travolta and Finola Hughes in a 20-minute oiled-up loincloth dance finale; 1978-84 decisions blamed on cocaine.
Approx. transcript time · 00:21:11Read transcript
Stallone's personal life (Brigitte Nielsen, Jennifer Flavin) was tabloid news when he was the biggest star; one panelist says he is 30 and learned of Staying Alive via YouTube in college; Stallone compared with Wallace Beery.
Approx. transcript time · 00:23:17Read transcript
Stallone was likely intimidating to Coogler (28) and Jordan; many thought making Creed after Fruitvale Station was a mistake, but Coogler, a big Rocky fan, wanted to make it before Fruitvale and only gained the cachet after it.
Approx. transcript time · 00:25:00Read transcript
Coogler's jump from a small movie to Creed compared with Colin Trevorrow going to Jurassic World; his first three films (Fruitvale, Creed, Black Panther) compared with Spielberg's Sugarland Express, Jaws, Close Encounters, though Spielberg had Duel and TV experience.
Approx. transcript time · 00:27:03Read transcript
Fantasy draft of directors for the next 20 years: Coogler possibly first pick, with Chazelle, Barry Jenkins and a director heard as 'Trey at where Schultz'; PTA over 40.
Approx. transcript time · 00:28:27Read transcript
One panelist calls the Safdie brothers (ASR Saffty) frauds and dislikes Good Time; news that they are doing 48 Hrs. deepens that view. A Tiffany Haddish casting floated with it is later said to have been made up.
Approx. transcript time · 00:29:29Read transcript
Tessa Thompson made a bold choice with the part; her look evokes Lisa Bonet as a Philadelphia type; tangent on Lisa Bonet, Zoe Kravitz and Jason Momoa, and Thompson's rise (Veronica Mars, Thor: Ragnarok, Annihilation, Westworld).
Approx. transcript time · 00:42:44Read transcript
Enemy of the State is called the lost great Will Smith movie; complaint that Lisa Bonet's character dies while Regina King's lives.
Approx. transcript time · 00:44:55Read transcript
Diane Lane aside: one panelist has lifetime Diane Lane season tickets; an Unfaithful rewatchable is teased.
Approx. transcript time · 00:48:03Read transcript
The showdown before Bianca's concert where a fan calls him Baby Creed feels fake; two fights between them are unnecessary except that these movies do that.
Approx. transcript time · 00:54:56Read transcript
Boxing movies rarely have a Black protagonist who is also the boxer; examples raised include The Hurricane, Diggstown, Undisputed and The Great White Hype.
Approx. transcript time · 00:55:22Read transcript
Why do movies like Southpaw, The Fighter and Cinderella Man get made when Joe Louis, Jack Johnson and Joe Frazier stories have not; Black biopics take the parts that make white people comfortable.
Approx. transcript time · 00:56:51Read transcript
Denzel's first ten years (Carbon Copy, Virtuosity, Glory, Cry Freedom) compared with Jordan's; Jordan's 'mistakes' are conventional because those are the only options now.
Approx. transcript time · 01:06:25Read transcript
Jordan is hungry and intense next to seasoned actors like Stallone, Phylicia Rashad and Chadwick Boseman; compared to Angela Bassett at 10 all the time.
Approx. transcript time · 01:07:55Read transcript
Killmonger in Black Panther read as radical and politically Black, played with maximum intensity by a non-classically-trained actor among Yale-trained co-stars; hope he works with other directors then returns to Coogler.
Approx. transcript time · 01:09:32Read transcript
Scorsese-De Niro comparison raised and challenged; De Niro favorites (Midnight Run) debated as favorite versus best.
Approx. transcript time · 01:12:19Read transcript
Coogler's future: interested in paternity and masculinity across Fruitvale, Creed and Black Panther; no longer needs someone to give him a chance; worry about Netflix money or Black Panther 2 pressure versus smaller stories.
Approx. transcript time · 01:24:35Read transcript
No Black filmmaker has had as much cachet as Coogler now; Jordan Peele and Barry Jenkins follow, with Ava DuVernay seen as a different, more established case.
Approx. transcript time · 01:29:17Read transcript
Taped a week before the 2018 Oscars; state of movies: Moonlight's win compared to LeBron arriving; mid-budget adult movies (Roman J. Israel, Molly's Game, The Game) no longer find audiences; superhero-movie fatigue, Logan and Wonder Woman.
Approx. transcript time · 01:30:50Read transcript
Episode taping stated as mid-to-late February 2018, about a week before the Oscars.
Approx. transcript time · 01:30:50Read transcript
Closing thanks to Cam Collins, Sean Fennessey and Wesley Morris.
Approx. transcript time · 01:36:45Read transcript
Archived October 2015 interview excerpt: Jordan describes Stallone pressuring him to take a real punch for a slow-motion shot and seeing stars.
Approx. transcript time · 01:37:00Read transcript