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A Creed-centered version

Chris Ryan: The movie would be more interesting as Creed, centered on Apollo’s shame and rematch obsession.

Van Lathan: Rocky and Apollo would both fare better if they swapped wives.

The film

Rocky II (1979)

Directed by Sylvester Stallone · Sports

119 minutes

Cast

Selected cast credits · Film reference

Sylvester Stallone Robert "Rocky" Balboa , "The Italian Stallion"
Talia Shire Adrian Balboa
Burt Young Paulie Pennino
Carl Weathers Apollo Creed
Burgess Meredith Michael "Mickey" Goldmill
Tony Burton Tony "Duke" Evers
Sylvia Meals Mary Anne Creed
Seargeoh Stallone Robert "Rocky" Balboa Jr.
Paul Micale Father Carmine
Joe Spinell Tony Gazzo
Frank McRae meat foreman

Everything from the episode

In the order the hosts got to it. Open a row for the discussion.

24:33

Most Rewatchable Scene

Round fifteen; Apollo and Duke; Adrian awakening through the training turn

Round fifteen; Apollo and Duke; Adrian awakening through the training turn

In the discussion (28)
Approx. transcript time · 00:24:33Read transcript
  • The repeated ending of the first film is questioned for marathons, though the opening fight supplies action before a long stretch without boxing. — Bill Simmons
  • The opening credits and remastered Rocky theme are nominated.
  • Rocky wheeling over to Apollo and asking whether Apollo gave his best is nominated as a short scene. — Bill Simmons
  • Rocky’s zoo marriage proposal, including his awkward phrasing and invitation to the tiger, is nominated. — Bill Simmons
  • Rocky struggling to film the Beast aftershave commercial is nominated and described as painful to watch.
  • The group digresses on period aftershave advertising and the appeal of the Beast campaign. — Van Lathan
  • Mickey testing Rocky’s injured eye and warning that another fight could hurt him permanently is nominated. — Bill Simmons
  • Rocky returning to work in the gym and Mickey challenging his dignity is separately praised for Stallone’s acting. — Bill Simmons
  • Rocky’s quiet job loss and request to finish the workday are praised as understated setbacks.
  • Duke warning Apollo that Rocky kept coming and is wrong for them is praised as a great sports-movie monologue. — Bill Simmons
  • Apollo calling Rocky out on television through Mickey deciding they should fight again is nominated. — Bill Simmons
  • Paulie’s behavior at the press conference prompts an extended objection to the harm he causes Adrian and Rocky.
  • The eleven-minute coma stretch is criticized for its length. — Bill Simmons
  • Adrian waking, telling Rocky to win, and Mickey asking what they are waiting for is selected as a favorite sports-movie turn. — Bill Simmons
  • The one-arm exercise against the sun, chicken-catching, and jump-rope work announce the energized training montage. — Bill Simmons
  • The montage is praised for establishing the heightened training template of later Rocky films. — Bill Simmons
  • Rocky beating up scrap metal is singled out as a standout training-montage image. — Bill Simmons
  • The hosts estimate roughly six weeks of serious training before the fight.
  • Rocky dropping the heavy log and choosing to pick it up again is praised as a perseverance moment.
  • The scrapyard hammering prompts a joke about a spinoff following the scrapyard owner. — Bill Simmons
  • Mickey’s largely silent assistant receives praise for the medicine-ball training and stomach punches. — Bill Simmons
  • The montage’s contrast between neighborhood-supported Rocky and ego-driven Apollo is praised. — Van Lathan
  • Rocky’s run through Philadelphia with the children is nominated, while its estimated distance and finishing sprint are questioned.
  • The fight’s escalation into “World War III” and Rocky refusing to go down are nominated. — Bill Simmons
  • Rounds three through fourteen and especially the fifteenth-round double knockout are nominated. — Bill Simmons
  • Rocky’s victory speech produces a debate over ranking the day against marriage and his child’s birth.
  • One final choice is round fifteen, with the Apollo-and-Duke conversation as a secondary favorite. — Van Lathan
  • Another final choice is Adrian waking followed by “What are we waiting for?” and the training montage. — Van Lathan
34:57

“OK, Motherfucker” Award for When the Movie Goes Up a Notch

Adrian’s “Win,” followed by Mickey’s “What are we waiting for?”

Adrian’s “Win,” followed by Mickey’s “What are we waiting for?”

In the discussion (2)
Approx. transcript time · 00:34:57Read transcript
  • Adrian saying “win” is identified as the point when the movie goes up a notch.
  • The group agrees that “What are we waiting for?” is a better category name because this film accelerates immediately afterward.
44:17

The most 1979 thing

A 9.5% mortgage, fifteen-round fights, paper hate mail, and major fights on regular Philadelphia television

A 9.5% mortgage, fifteen-round fights, paper hate mail, and major fights on regular Philadelphia television

In the discussion (5)
Approx. transcript time · 00:44:17Read transcript
  • A 9.5% mortgage on a $16,000 Philadelphia house is nominated.
  • Roberto Duran appearing as a sparring partner leads to an extended period-boxing discussion. — Van Lathan
  • Fifteen-round championship fights are nominated. — Van Lathan
  • Receiving and reading physical hate mail is nominated. — Van Lathan
  • Major fights airing on regular television and being held in Philadelphia are nominated. — Van Lathan
44:30

What’s Aged the Worst?

Affordable housing, Paulie, weight training, Adrian missing the fight, stickball, domestic expectations, background b...

Affordable housing, Paulie, weight training, Adrian missing the fight, stickball, domestic expectations, background boxing, and Rocky’s exaggerated impairment

In the discussion (8)
Approx. transcript time · 00:44:30Read transcript
  • A young couple being able to afford the house is identified as having aged worst.
  • Paulie is selected as having aged worst. — Bill Simmons
  • The claim that boxers should never lift weights is questioned. — Bill Simmons
  • Adrian not attending the fight is criticized. — Bill Simmons
  • Stickball and children playing outside are nominated as dated images. — Van Lathan
  • Rocky telling Adrian to start dinner after she returns to work is criticized as dated. — Van Lathan
  • A background boxer’s technique and hairline are mocked. — Van Lathan
  • Stallone is criticized for making Rocky seem too cognitively impaired in this installment.
48:01

Steven Seagal shitting on himself award for most unbelievable anecdote from the actual film shoot

Stallone’s pectoral injury (uncertain) and Talia Shire’s scheduling conflict as explanations for plot choices

Stallone’s pectoral injury (uncertain) and Talia Shire’s scheduling conflict as explanations for plot choices

In the discussion (3)
Approx. transcript time · 00:48:01Read transcript
  • The host says he is not positive he believes Stallone’s claim that a torn left pectoral forced the switch to right-handed fighting. — Bill Simmons
  • The group notes that one-handed exercises in the training montage may support the injury account. — Chris Ryan
  • Talia Shire’s work on Old Boyfriends is reported as the reason Adrian misses the fight and her scenes were filmed later. — Chris Ryan
49:46

What’s Aged the Best?

The zoo callback, reckless spending spree, fuller arena, Tony’s pep talk, New Jersey gas service, Rocky lore inherite...

The zoo callback, reckless spending spree, fuller arena, Tony’s pep talk, New Jersey gas service, Rocky lore inherited by Creed, and Carl Weathers

In the discussion (9)
Approx. transcript time · 00:49:46Read transcript
  • The zoo callback to the driver in the first film is praised. — Bill Simmons
  • Rocky rejecting condominiums and characters going on a visibly doomed spending spree are praised as period storytelling. — Bill Simmons
  • The arena being filled with actual extras improves on the first film’s cost-cutting. — Chris Ryan
  • Tony’s monotone locker-room encouragement of Apollo is praised. — Chris Ryan
  • Tony’s pep talk prompts a joking comparison to Ben Johnson coaching Caleb Williams. — Chris Ryan
  • The line about pumping gas in New Jersey still works because drivers there cannot pump their own gas. — Van Lathan
  • A story about teasing Charlemagne for using full-service gas leads to discussion of regional gas-station customs and their argumentative friendship. — Van Lathan
  • The Rocky lore and visual template inherited by Creed, especially the running and training material, are praised. — Van Lathan
  • Carl Weathers’s athleticism, acting, and range are praised. — Van Lathan
52:40

Sasha Jenkins Award for Actor Who You Can’t Believe Didn’t Become a Bigger Star

Carl Weathers

Carl Weathers

In the discussion (3)
Approx. transcript time · 00:52:40Read transcript
  • Carl Weathers is selected because his comedy, action work, athleticism, and dramatic range should have produced a larger career.
  • The group objects to how often his characters die to motivate other heroes. — Van Lathan
  • A sitcom-style career turn is suggested as another path he could have taken. — Van Lathan
55:43

The Big Kahuna Burger Award for Best Use of Food and Drink

The meat, Paulie’s snow cone, and the spit bucket are nominated.

The meat, Paulie’s snow cone, and the spit bucket are nominated.

In the discussion (3)
Approx. transcript time · 00:55:43Read transcript
  • The meat is nominated.
  • Paulie’s snow cone is nominated.
  • The spit bucket is nominated as a drink. — Chris Ryan
56:04

The Great Shot Gordo Award for Most Cinematic Shot

The children running with Rocky and fight footage projected over Mickey are considered.

The children running with Rocky and fight footage projected over Mickey are considered.

In the discussion (2)
Approx. transcript time · 00:56:04Read transcript
  • The little kids running with Rocky are nominated. — Chris Ryan
  • The first fight projected against Mickey while he studies the footage is nominated. — Chris Ryan
56:55

The Slow Ride / Kid Cudi – Pursuit of Happiness Award for Best Needle Drop

The opening credits or ambulance ride and “Gonna Fly Now” over the training montage are considered.

The opening credits or ambulance ride and “Gonna Fly Now” over the training montage are considered.

In the discussion (2)
Approx. transcript time · 00:56:55Read transcript
  • The opening credits and ambulance ride are nominated. — Bill Simmons
  • “Gonna Fly Now” over the training montage is preferred.
57:08

Chest Rockwell / Brock Landers Award for Best Character Name

Apollo Creed

Apollo Creed

In the discussion (2)
Approx. transcript time · 00:57:08Read transcript
  • Apollo Creed remains the preferred character name.
  • Father Carmine is also nominated. — Bill Simmons
59:14

Mallory Rubin Award: Did This Movie Need a Better Sex Scene?

The group asks whether Rocky and Adrian have sex only on their wedding night, then compares Adrian across the franchise.

The group asks whether Rocky and Adrian have sex only on their wedding night, then compares Adrian across the franchise.

In the discussion (3)
Approx. transcript time · 00:59:14Read transcript
  • The category is posed in reverse as a question about whether the wedding night is Rocky and Adrian’s only sexual encounter.
  • The empty new house prompts a joke that the couple could use every room. — Van Lathan
  • Adrian’s personality and communication are compared across later Rocky films. — Van Lathan
1:00:36

The Butch’s Girlfriend Award for the Weakest Link in the Film

Rocky beating the prepared Apollo, the coma, Gazzo’s unused plot potential, and Adrian

Rocky beating the prepared Apollo, the coma, Gazzo’s unused plot potential, and Adrian

In the discussion (4)
Approx. transcript time · 01:00:36Read transcript
  • One-eyed and impaired Rocky beating a prepared, motivated Apollo is selected. — Bill Simmons
  • The coma is selected. — Chris Ryan
  • Gazzo is selected because his appearances have little effect on the plot despite Joe Spinell’s performance.
  • Adrian is selected without elaboration. — Bill Simmons
1:08:16

The Ruffalo / Hanna / Rubinek / Partridge Overacting Award

The commercial director and Burgess Meredith

The commercial director and Burgess Meredith

In the discussion (2)
Approx. transcript time · 01:08:16Read transcript
  • The commercial director is nominated. — Bill Simmons
  • Burgess as Mickey is nominated for shouting through his scenes. — Chris Ryan
1:12:51

The Stephen A. Smith Hottest Take Award

A Creed-centered version; swapped spouses; Apollo’s wife among 1970s beauties; Stallone over Cruise as a movie runner

A Creed-centered version; swapped spouses; Apollo’s wife among 1970s beauties; Stallone over Cruise as a movie runner

In the discussion (4)
Approx. transcript time · 01:12:51Read transcript
  • The movie would be more interesting as Creed, centered on Apollo’s shame and rematch obsession. — Chris Ryan
  • Rocky and Apollo would both fare better if they swapped wives. — Van Lathan
  • Apollo’s wife is placed among the best-looking Black women of the 1970s. — Bill Simmons
  • Stallone is judged a better and more natural movie runner than Tom Cruise.
1:19:49

Casting What-Ifs

Chuck Wepner’s proposed trainer role

Chuck Wepner’s proposed trainer role

In the discussion (1)
Approx. transcript time · 01:19:49Read transcript
  • The real-life boxer who inspired Rocky was reportedly offered a trainer role later removed from the screenplay. — Bill Simmons
1:20:04

The Joey Pants “That Guy” Award

Frank McRae

Frank McRae

In the discussion (1)
Approx. transcript time · 01:20:04Read transcript
1:20:19

The Dion Waiters Award for Best Heat Check Performance

Brent Musburger

Brent Musburger

In the discussion (5)
Approx. transcript time · 01:20:19Read transcript
1:22:13

Recasting Couch

Chris Ryan as the commercial director; Al Pacino as backup

Chris Ryan as the commercial director; Al Pacino as backup

In the discussion (1)
Approx. transcript time · 01:22:13Read transcript
1:25:19

Half-Assed Internet Research

The dedication, Leroy Neiman, Rocky’s reading, running-scene extras, room 669, the novelization, and Burt Young’s wei...

The dedication, Leroy Neiman, Rocky’s reading, running-scene extras, room 669, the novelization, and Burt Young’s weight loss; Paulie speculation

In the discussion (9)
Approx. transcript time · 01:25:19Read transcript
  • The film is dedicated to Stallone’s first agent, Jane Oliver. — Bill Simmons
  • Leroy Neiman appears drawing Apollo during training. — Bill Simmons
  • Rocky reads The Deputy Sheriff of Comanche County by Edgar Rice Burroughs to Adrian.
  • An estimated 800 schoolchildren were used for the running scene. — Bill Simmons
  • Adrian’s hospital room is numbered 669, described as an angel number. — Bill Simmons
  • A 1979 Rocky II novel credited to Stallone uses Rocky’s first-person narration and shifts to third person for Apollo. — Chris Ryan
  • Burt Young’s weight loss between films was disguised for the hospital scene and acknowledged in dialogue.
  • Paulie’s changing status and dependence on Rocky are discussed.
  • The group speculates that Paulie may be in love with Rocky. — Van Lathan
1:29:02

Apex Mountain

No affirmative selection

No affirmative selection

In the discussion (5)
Approx. transcript time · 01:29:02Read transcript
  • Stallone is rejected here in favor of his mid-1980s Rocky IV and Rambo period.
  • Bert Young’s mid-1980s run is considered.
  • Brent Musburger’s peak is debated. — Van Lathan
  • The Philadelphia Zoo tiger is nominated as being at its peak. — Bill Simmons
  • The eleven-minute coma is proposed as a peak for overlong coma scenes.
1:33:40

Cruise or Hanks?

Cruise as Rocky

Cruise as Rocky

In the discussion (1)
Approx. transcript time · 01:33:40Read transcript
  • Cruise is selected to play Rocky because Hanks is not plausible as a boxer. — Van Lathan
1:33:51

Scorsese or Spielberg?

Scorsese

Scorsese

In the discussion (2)
Approx. transcript time · 01:33:51Read transcript
  • Scorsese is selected. — Van Lathan
  • Spielberg’s version is imagined as an expansive morality tale. — Van Lathan
1:34:00

What role would Philip Seymour Hoffman play?

Mickey, Paulie, and the commercial director

Mickey, Paulie, and the commercial director

In the discussion (3)
Approx. transcript time · 01:34:00Read transcript
  • Mickey is proposed.
  • Paulie is proposed. — Chris Ryan
  • The commercial director is proposed. — Chris Ryan
1:34:10

Picking Nits

Rocky’s post-fight prospects, boxing rules and defense, chicken training, and Adrian’s tubeless coma

Rocky’s post-fight prospects, boxing rules and defense, chicken training, and Adrian’s tubeless coma

In the discussion (6)
Approx. transcript time · 01:34:10Read transcript
  • Rocky should receive far more commercial and media opportunities after the first Apollo fight.
  • Apollo’s six-month layoff is questioned against the era’s frequent heavyweight schedules.
  • Chicken chasing is criticized as a poor training method. — Bill Simmons
  • The film’s double-knockdown rule is inaccurate because both fighters could continue if they beat the count.
  • Apollo absorbs implausibly many undefended body shots.
  • Adrian’s coma is shown without tubes, food, water, or other support. — Bill Simmons
1:39:50

Sequel, Prequel, Limited Series, or All-Black Remake

A reported prestige television project in the Creed world

A reported prestige television project in the Creed world

In the discussion (2)
Approx. transcript time · 01:39:50Read transcript
  • The group says sequel, prequel, and all-Black continuation ideas have already been done. — Bill Simmons
  • A reported television project set in the Creed world is discussed as the prestige-TV route. — Van Lathan
1:41:30

Is This Movie Better With…?

The rotating-commentator premise includes Al Michaels calling the double knockdown.

The rotating-commentator premise includes Al Michaels calling the double knockdown.

In the discussion (1)
Approx. transcript time · 01:41:30Read transcript
  • Al Michaels is proposed to call the double knockdown, but the imagined call needs more excitement.
1:42:46

Just One Oscar

Bill Conti

Bill Conti

In the discussion (2)
Approx. transcript time · 01:42:46Read transcript
1:43:00

Probably Unanswerable Questions

The pet store, Gazzo, betting, Apollo’s schedule, and whether Rocky loves boxing

The pet store, Gazzo, betting, Apollo’s schedule, and whether Rocky loves boxing

In the discussion (4)
Approx. transcript time · 01:43:00Read transcript
  • Whether Adrian’s pet store ever has customers is questioned. — Bill Simmons
  • The Mafia bookie’s disappearance before Rocky III is attributed speculatively to violence or prosecutions.
  • Whether Rocky was an attractive five-to-one bet is debated.
  • Whether Rocky actually loves boxing is asked; the group sees him as trapped by limited alternatives. — Bill Simmons
1:46:34

What Piece of Memorabilia Would You Want From This Movie?

Beast aftershave, the fake nose, Apollo’s trunks and gloves, cars, and snow-cone machine

Beast aftershave, the fake nose, Apollo’s trunks and gloves, cars, and snow-cone machine

In the discussion (5)
Approx. transcript time · 01:46:34Read transcript
  • The Beast aftershave bottle is selected. — Bill Simmons
  • Rocky’s removable fake broken nose is proposed. — Bill Simmons
  • Apollo’s trunks and gloves are proposed.
  • One of the cars is proposed.
  • The snow-cone machine is proposed.
1:47:15

The Coach Finstock Award for Best Life Lesson

Listen to the trainer, resist ego, and do not read hate mail

Listen to the trainer, resist ego, and do not read hate mail

In the discussion (2)
Approx. transcript time · 01:47:15Read transcript
  • Listen to the trainer instead of the ego is the main lesson.
  • Apollo’s obsession supplies the related lesson not to read hate mail. — Van Lathan
1:47:45

Best Double Feature

Rocky III, Diggstown, and Gladiator
In the discussion (3)
Approx. transcript time · 01:47:45Read transcript
  • Rocky III is selected for contrast and for extending the franchise’s strongest stretch.
  • Diggstown is proposed as a non-Rocky boxing pairing.
  • Gladiator is proposed as another boxing pairing. — Van Lathan
1:49:04

Who Won the Movie?

Sylvester Stallone

Sylvester Stallone

In the discussion (1)
Approx. transcript time · 01:49:04Read transcript
  • Stallone wins for writing and directing. — Chris Ryan
Podcast choices
Speaker not identified
Sylvester Stallone
Speaker not identified
Sylvester Stallone

More from the conversation

Rocky II is described both as the franchise’s true beginning and as a remastered repetition of the first film.
Approx. transcript time · 00:04:50Read transcript
The remembered theatrical crowd response and the slow domestic middle are used to explain why the ending still lands.
Approx. transcript time · 00:08:50Read transcript
The production history covers Stallone taking the directing job, the budget, sequel box-office record, and career consequences.
Approx. transcript time · 00:12:54Read transcript
The final training-and-fight run is praised as an exceptionally sustained rewatchable stretch.
Approx. transcript time · 00:15:50Read transcript
The Rocky films are used to describe a shift from gritty 1970s filmmaking to shorter, glossier 1980s entertainment.
Approx. transcript time · 01:49:04Read transcript

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