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Victory

year 1981decade 80sdirector John Hustongenre Sportsgenre Wargenre Drama

117 minutes

Cast

Selected cast credits · Film reference

Sylvester Stallone Captain Robert Hatch
Michael Caine Captain John Colby
Max von Sydow Major Karl von Steiner
Pelé Corporal Luis Fernandez
Bobby Moore Terry Brady
Osvaldo Ardiles Carlos Rey
Paul Van Himst Michel Fileu
Kazimierz Deyna Paul Wolchek
Mike Summerbee Sid Harmor
Co Prins Pieter Van Beck
Russell Osman Doug Clure
John Wark Arthur Hayes
Kevin O'Callaghan Tony Lewis
Werner Roth Baumann
Laurie Sivell Schmidt
Daniel Massey Colonel Waldron
Carole Laure Renée
Anton Diffring Chief commentator
Amidou André

Victory | The Rewatchables

host Bill Simmonshost Chris Ryanproducer Craig Horlbeck format 40th anniversary
Explore episodeClose episode

Producer review

Into it because the ending pays off

In the discussion (2)
Approx. transcript time · 00:27:51Read transcript
  • The host worried the producer, as a member of the TikTok generation, would quit during the slow first 90 minutes.
  • Not too slow: having been warned, he was into it, knowing it would end well, since buying in is better when the ending pays off. — Craig Horlbeck

Most Rewatchable Scene

Pelé's injury through the first Allies goal

In the discussion (13)
Approx. transcript time · 00:29:22Read transcript
  • The ending will win, but a couple of picks from the first 90 minutes are included.
  • The first von Steiner and Colby scenes are liked: the cat-and-mouse while Steiner watches the soccer, "Can I have my ball back," and the negotiation proposing a friendly match.
  • Colby objects not on moral grounds but over boots and resources, prioritizing beer and shirts for the players while other prisoners stay caged.
  • The first big training sequence leads to Pele grabbing the chalk; any time Pele gets to cook, the film is great.
  • Pele's character being from Trinidad is presumably a wartime workaround, even though Stallone's character is in the Canadian Air Force.
  • No other pick until the last 30 minutes, which hold five of eight picks.
  • Pele gets demolished with apparent broken ribs, turns back while walking off to the music, and that leads to the cross, Stallone kicked in the face, and the blurry counterattack; that minute is put up against any minute in a sports movie and named the pick.
  • The famous tunnel scene is floated as a possible pick: Hatch urging escape, the Scottish player insisting "we can win this," and Pele's speech.
  • The next two Allies goals are praised; a team down to 10 men scoring unanswered goals never happens, with a disallowed fifth joked about as German VAR.
  • Pele returns holding his ribs to set up the bicycle kick, and the good Nazi stands up to applaud it.
  • The penalty stop and crowd-rush escape are loved, though the Germans would surely have opened fire and hundreds would not escape.
  • Final pick: Pele getting hurt through the first Allies goal is the favorite minute of the movie.
  • The other pick goes with that, calling the Ardiles goal the favorite goal, with the comeback culminating in Caine walking into the halftime locker room, where one player has a compound fracture and Pele cannot breathe.

What’s Aged the Best?

Bill Conti's score; the crowd singing the French anthem; the crooked referee; widescreen and HD; Prisoner FC; Pelé's practice scissor kick; POW camps and domesticated British officers; the closing credits; the good Nazi; the announcer; beating Nazis; the soccer; Pelé

In the discussion (14)
Approx. transcript time · 00:38:07Read transcript
  • The music: Bill Conti is the goat, and this may be the number one sports-movie score, with dire, comeback, celebration and evil themes.
  • The crowd singing what is believed to be the French national anthem before the penalty gives goosebumps; one sings along without knowing the language.
  • The crooked referee is in the bag for the Nazis; the Allies play down a man for about 70 minutes and still tie.
  • Widescreen and HD reinvented the movie; it is a top-five thank-God-for-HD film.
  • The team calls itself Prisoner FC, noticed on about the 57th screening; someone should make the jerseys.
  • Pele's scissor kick on Sly in practice is amazing, and his final goal resembles a Champions League scissor-kick goal against Leverkusen.
  • POW camps are always a killer premise, especially British officers who have domesticated the camp with sweaters, pipes and gardening, like Colonel Waldron.
  • The closing credits listing each player's country helped a pre-internet viewer learn who the players were.
  • The good Nazi who just loves soccer is pulled off, though if so, why not manage the team, resign, or escape with them.
  • The announcer is really good.
  • Beating Nazis at anything, whether recovering archaeological finds, art or diamonds.
  • Stallone ends the Cold War and beats the Nazis in two sports movies within five years.
  • Conti's score is seconded, and the soccer moves feel like 2021 rather than 1943.
  • Pele: Victory is his testament and legacy, bicycle kick and all.

What’s Aged the Worst?

Pelé's bald patch; retitling to Victory; Ipswich Town's decline; Michael Caine's soccer; Stallone's goalkeeping; no scrimmage scene; Pelé celebrating with broken ribs; Hatch's Paris subplot; Russell Osman's unsold kit

In the discussion (12)
Approx. transcript time · 00:45:13Read transcript
  • Pele's bald patch looked almost like a toupee; the other host had not noticed it.
  • Changing the title from Escape to Victory to just Victory.
  • Everyone being impressed by Pele's juggling is raised, but countered that in the 1940s it would have been mind-blowing.
  • Ipswich Town kind of peaked here and has fallen on hard times.
  • Michael Caine the soccer player: per the internet, leg issues meant a stunt player, Kevin Beattie, did his running scenes, and Ardiles reportedly called him awful and unable to run 20 yards.
  • Stallone's goalkeeping is tough and his team role fluid; the counter is that the film never claims he is good, though holding off the Germans and saving a penalty from a top player is highly unlikely.
  • There is no good scrimmage or practice scene, while 13 minutes go to Sly and the French woman; the film gets to know only Caine, Stallone and the colonel, unlike The Dirty Dozen or The Great Escape.
  • John Wark reportedly said Stallone wanted to score the winning goal; a corner-kick version was tried, and the penalty save took six rehearsal takes.
  • Pele jumping in to celebrate with seven broken ribs.
  • The German goalie tried to save the bicycle kick for realism, and no wide shot of the actual kick could be filmed.
  • Hatch's escape and Paris sojourn could be cut entirely; it seems added to introduce a female character, and his capture is never shown, though his shower escape from camp is liked.
  • Russell Osmond reportedly kept his whole kit, a signed ball and a director's chair; they should go up for internet auction.

Casting What-Ifs

Roger Moore as John Colby; Lloyd Bridges; Clint Eastwood

In the discussion (4)
Approx. transcript time · 00:55:14Read transcript
  • Few casting what-ifs could be found; Roger Moore considering John Colby is interesting, but Caine is preferred.
  • A modern John Colby would have to play soccer, like a more working-man's Colin Firth.
  • Lloyd Bridges and Clint Eastwood were reportedly circling; Clint as Hatch would be a completely different, cooler movie with no comic relief.
  • Clint likely would not break the Irish goalie's arm; better if Hatch stays as trainer and backup goalie and the arm is broken in the match by Balman.

The Joey Pants “That Guy” Award

In the discussion (2)
Approx. transcript time · 00:56:49Read transcript
  • The two unnamed men in the crowd who help with the escape, one with glasses, are recognizable from elsewhere.
  • Maurice Roves, the Scottish officer, later has his heart cut out by Magua in Last of the Mohicans; that is called the winner.

Recasting Couch

Gus Johnson on commentary; Jacqueline Bisset replacing Carole Laure

In the discussion (2)
Approx. transcript time · 00:59:13Read transcript
  • Recut the match with Gus Johnson and a second commentator whose name is garbled in the transcript calling it.
  • Replace Carol Loret with Jacqueline Bisset for a 13-minute France trip, which would make leaving her for the match a real question.

Half-Assed Internet Research

Hungarian source film; death-match story; Gordon Banks's coaching; Pelé's Trinidad backstory; Stallone's training and weight loss; Ardiles's greatest sporting moment; Stallone's injuries; Budapest stadium

In the discussion (8)
Approx. transcript time · 01:00:21Read transcript
  • The film is loosely based on the 1962 Hungarian drama known in English as Two Half Times in Hell.
  • That film drew on a discredited death-match story in Ukraine; in reality the team played friendlies and four were killed much later.
  • Gordon Banks, the 1966 English goalie, was Stallone's goalkeeping coach.
  • Pele's character was made Trinidadian because Brazil did not join the war until 1943, and Ardiles's country is never stated.
  • Stallone trained on weekends off from Nighthawks and lost 40 pounds to look like a prisoner, staying thin into Rocky 3.
  • Ardiles, a 1978 World Cup winner, called the film his greatest sporting moment; the athletes called it the best summer of their lives.
  • Stallone refused a body double, separating a shoulder and breaking a finger.
  • The Paris stadium was actually Budapest's MTK Stadium.

Apex Mountain

Ipswich Town; two-man sit-ups; Michael Caine saying "bloody"

In the discussion (6)
Approx. transcript time · 01:03:55Read transcript
  • Stallone, Pele and Michael Caine are all ruled out.
  • Ipswich Town is a yes, repping well in the film amid their trophy run.
  • Werner Roth is probably not; John Houston, soccer and the Dobermans are no, and Ardiles's peak remains the 1978 World Cup.
  • Two-man sit-ups are Apex Mountain for old-school calisthenics, with no question.
  • Good Nazis: Von Sido is great but this is not his Apex Mountain.
  • Apex Mountain for the word bloody, used in this movie the way fucking is used in Wolf of Wall Street.

Picking Nits

The Irish goalie's broken arm; Hatch agreeing to be recaptured; letting the escaped Hatch play; Stallone's goalkeeping; Pelé from Trinidad; the down-a-man comeback; the caught penalty; Hatch's unpunished antics; the match going ahead; the broken-ribs bicycle kick; soldiers not firing

In the discussion (14)
Approx. transcript time · 01:05:37Read transcript
  • Agreeing to be recaptured makes no sense for Hatch, who is free in France with no ties to the players, and his escape seems too easy.
  • The Irish goalie agreeing to have his arm broken may be the number one sports-movie nitpick ever.
  • British prisoners had a sworn duty to try to escape and a many-over-the-few attitude, but the goalie could have faked illness or an injury instead.
  • The Nazis let the just-recaptured Hatch play goal.
  • Stallone's goalkeeping, including slide tackles and coming off his line, is basically rugby.
  • Pele being from Trinidad feels like a violation.
  • Down a man, they score four straight plus a disallowed fifth while a concussed Stallone throws a shutout.
  • Stallone catching rather than tipping a professional's penalty kick.
  • Hatch's badgering to join the team and tackling would have gotten him private piled in that camp, as in the Private Piles analogy.
  • The Nazis would have canceled the game and killed the team once Hatch escaped.
  • A bicycle kick and celebration with seven broken ribs; end credits could have added title cards on each player's fate.
  • Soldiers would start shooting everyone at the end, and the inept Nazi security trope is taken far.
  • Brought in as tie-breaker for the biggest nitpick, the drop-in guest says there is zero chance the goalie lets his arm be broken instead of claiming another injury.
  • It has been debated since about 1982: the arm break is never explained, and it proves pointless once the players stay and only accidentally escape.

Sequel, Prequel, Limited Series, or All-Black Remake

Yes, as a basketball series

In the discussion (3)
Approx. transcript time · 01:16:23Read transcript
  • You, me and producer Craig all agree: yes, please.
  • Switch sports to basketball, since redoing soccer would be sacrilegious, and set it in World War III: Red Dawn meets Hoosiers.
  • LeBron as Pele; jokes about Maverick Carter, Russell Westbrook changing teams, and Gene Hackman as Popovich.

Probably Unanswerable Questions

Von Steiner's fate; Stallone scoring the winner; Hatch's future; the Eastern European players; the tub trick; the best fictional sports event to attend

In the discussion (7)
Approx. transcript time · 01:17:22Read transcript
  • How fast was Steiner murdered after the game, or was he transferred to the Russian front?
  • Stallone reportedly wanted to score the winner; the penalty save as filmed is judged best, with a header the most realistic alternative and a length-of-field punt implausible.
  • Did Hatch keep playing goalie? He goes back to America with his French bride and annoys everyone about soccer.
  • The Eastern European players who can't play but must be saved from the labor camp: one liked it; they could have been fed enough for one to play a few minutes.
  • Would banging the bottom of the hot tub to drain it flood the tunnel?
  • Best fictional sports event to attend: the Roy Hobbs homer is the usual answer, with Wildcats football mentioned and the Miracle on Ice excluded as real.
  • With Gus, Roy Hobbs is defended against Rocky beating Drago in Russia, and this match is praised for the soccer, bicycle kick, escape and anthem singing.

What Piece of Memorabilia Would You Want From This Movie?

Waldron's sweaters; the game-worn Pelé jersey; a signed cast; the crowd-noise radio

In the discussion (4)
Approx. transcript time · 01:26:08Read transcript
  • Some of Waldron's sweaters.
  • The game-worn Pele jersey.
  • The signed cast from "Gold Co." (garbled in the transcript).
  • The radio device that makes crowd noise, to use on podcasts.

Who Won the Movie?

In the discussion (5)
Approx. transcript time · 01:26:55Read transcript
  • Sly Stallone is ruled out; the film was not ultimately a win for him.
  • Pele: he nails the bicycle kick, made soccer seem cool, and the film became his legacy for 40 years.
  • Michael Caine, for showing he could act under any circumstances, with the film shooting around his soccer limits.
  • Pele is the second vote, for two Peles and one Michael Caine. — Chris Ryan
  • Soccer is floated as the sleeper pick and affirmed as a good one, since the film may have gotten people to play soccer like Breaking Away did for cycling.
Podcast choices
Speaker not identified
Pelé
Speaker not identified
Michael Caine

More from the conversation

A Ringer network plug points to Chris Ryan's other shows before a trailer cold open.
Approx. transcript time · 00:01:24Read transcript
It is episode 199; the film is also called Escape to Victory, the preferred title, and it turned 40 the previous week, which is why it is being covered.
Approx. transcript time · 00:02:20Read transcript
The film is said to have the best extended sports-movie sequence, about 25 minutes, and arguably the greatest movie premise: soccer plus escaping a World War II POW camp; it is surprising nobody has remade it, perhaps with another sport, as with The Longest Yard.
Approx. transcript time · 00:02:58Read transcript
Premise recap: a Nazi officer, Steiner, proposes a match that snowballs into a Paris stadium game, and Caine's player-manager recruits an all-star team.
Approx. transcript time · 00:04:34Read transcript
Stallone was about to start his big run from Rocky 3 through First Blood, Rocky 4, Rambo, Cobra and Tango and Cash; he did not win this movie, and it may be better without him.
Approx. transcript time · 00:05:14Read transcript
Real footballers include Pele, Bobby Moore, captain of England's 1966 World Cup winners, and Spurs showman Ardiles; a rule is floated that half of a sports movie's playing cast should be real athletes, as in Blue Chips but not White Men Can't Jump.
Approx. transcript time · 00:05:40Read transcript
One of the first rewatchables: it ran on HBO for about three years in the early 80s, and Victory and the Cosmos were an entry to soccer.
Approx. transcript time · 00:07:21Read transcript
The first Allies goal is called the favorite 40 seconds of any sports movie, filmed by someone who cared about soccer.
Approx. transcript time · 00:08:27Read transcript
Huston shoots the match in a hybrid TV style with good close-ups while hiding that Michael Caine cannot play; he is barely on the field.
Approx. transcript time · 00:09:20Read transcript
In 1981 Pele was a god in America via the NASL Cosmos, and casting him gave the film credibility nobody else could have provided.
Approx. transcript time · 00:10:41Read transcript
For American viewers, soccer stars were myths seen only in highlights, so Victory may be the longest Pele footage some ever saw.
Approx. transcript time · 00:11:53Read transcript
The NASL expanded too fast; the movie was 63rd at the 1981 box office with $10 million but was a thing with kids, including a birthday-party viewing and HBO reruns.
Approx. transcript time · 00:13:04Read transcript
Square-TV framing hid Werner Roth sinking to the ground after the penalty save, only visible on DVD.
Approx. transcript time · 00:14:52Read transcript
A recent NBC Sports Network airing prompted texts with a friend of four decades; Hatch's 13-minute Paris sojourn is a good time for a sandwich.
Approx. transcript time · 00:15:23Read transcript
The film's bones are closer to The Great Escape than an 80s movie; World War II prisoner films are among Hollywood's most durable setups, and Nazis are the greatest movie villains.
Approx. transcript time · 00:16:26Read transcript
Huston was 74, this was his fifth-to-last film, and reports conflict on whether he loved it.
Approx. transcript time · 00:18:01Read transcript
A disturbing legacy is that everybody seemed to be out on Stallone, who reportedly took it seriously only after a broken finger.
Approx. transcript time · 00:18:36Read transcript
Bobby Moore led England to the 1966 World Cup over Germany; Ardiles was a master showman who translates best to modern soccer.
Approx. transcript time · 00:18:55Read transcript
The film splits the difference between good football and 1940s-style play, with Ardiles and Pele as modern bridge players among kick-and-rush teammates.
Approx. transcript time · 00:20:06Read transcript
Other players include a Polish great, a Dutch player and Ipswich Town regulars; Ipswich had a nice 70s run and Werner Roth of the Cosmos played Baumann.
Approx. transcript time · 00:21:20Read transcript
Ali and Pele were the most famous people of the 70s; World Cups were seen only via Wide World of Sports.
Approx. transcript time · 00:22:28Read transcript
Caine's early-80s run included Dressed to Kill, The Hand and Deathtrap; Jaws sequels are joked about.
Approx. transcript time · 00:23:05Read transcript
A $10 million budget returned $27 million thanks to international business; every sport got its 70s movie, soccer last, and Slap Shot remains unreviewed.
Approx. transcript time · 00:24:19Read transcript
Victory is called the greatest soccer movie by far; Bend It Like Beckham is overrated, The Damned United is liked, and bad TV soccer would make a great Twitter account.
Approx. transcript time · 00:25:21Read transcript
Zoe was shown the match on a plane when she was getting into soccer, and the first 90 minutes proved slow.
Approx. transcript time · 00:27:17Read transcript
A mock nitpick about aging players turns into a tangent criticizing the US women's Olympic soccer roster.
Approx. transcript time · 01:13:17Read transcript
A longtime friend, Gus, joins unprepared near the end as a tie-breaking vote.
Approx. transcript time · 01:21:59Read transcript
Victory is ranked in the top four most-discussed films alongside Rocky 3 and Rocky 4.
Approx. transcript time · 01:29:09Read transcript
Closing thanks Gus and Chris, credits the producer, and promises the 200th episode next week.
Approx. transcript time · 01:29:41Read transcript